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dark114
Joined: Mar 05, 2005
# Posts: 3
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Posted: 2005-Mar-05 17:58
why cant some one come up with a easey to use whot you see is whot you get PHP editor if there is one can you please tell me where i can get it to
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lizardz
Joined: Nov 12, 2004
# Posts: 1394
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Posted: 2005-Mar-05 19:12
What you see is what you get with programming? How do you see a loop through a two dimensional array drawn from a database query, the results of which are inserted into the appropriate fields of table x or y.
Dreamweaver has some php stuff that's automated if you absolutely insist on going that route, you'll need one of the later versions, mx or 2004. But when something doesn't work don't expect to understand why or to be able to fix it.
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g1smd
Staff
Joined: Jul 28, 2002
# Posts: 10439
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Posted: 2005-Mar-05 19:21
Simply because PHP is used for programming. You have to serve the pages to test them.
For static HTML you can just view them. For PHP the server has to process the pages; they cannot be "just viewed".
For local testing install Apache, PHP, mySQL, etc, on your machine and then browse the loacal copy of your site using http://localhost/ or http://127.0.0.1/ intead.
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dark114
Joined: Mar 05, 2005
# Posts: 3
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Posted: 2005-Mar-06 01:43
i am using windows xp would apache interfeer with it
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lizardz
Joined: Nov 12, 2004
# Posts: 1394
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Posted: 2005-Mar-06 02:13
For Windows XP, if all you want is a development server, that won't be live on the web, look into XAMPP, which includes everything you need. I'm not a fan, but it is easy to setup.
But don't expect to just start programming without learning anything first, same with working with servers, this stuff takes some amount of time and energy to get your foot into the door no matter how easy you make the first steps.
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g1smd
Staff
Joined: Jul 28, 2002
# Posts: 10439
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Posted: 2005-Mar-07 18:19
Get a package like PHPdev from firepages.au and it installs all you need.
It takes about 10 minutes to install and set up.
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JakeJeck
Joined: Nov 15, 2000
# Posts: 131
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Posted: 2005-Mar-18 15:29
Come to the darkside (ASP.NET) - we have an IDE (Visual Studio.NET) that blows everything away.
Need to set up a DB connection? Click and drag. Need to get a dataset from the DB? Click and drag. Need that data to be output into a fully formatted HTML table? Click and drag.
Although personally I use wrappers for everything such as DB calls so I don't do a whole lot of clicking and dragging except for textboxes, required field validators, datagrids, etc.
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lizardz
Joined: Nov 12, 2004
# Posts: 1394
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Posted: 2005-Mar-18 20:15
Need high end hosting with a real db, not Access? Need highest server uptimes in the industry? Need reasonably priced hosting that doesn't throttle your options to maintain server security? You'll be looking for a while if you run an IIS solution, they're out there, just not that many. Although I think I did finally see a Windows server box in the netcraft top server uptime figures, probably a gateway or something...
as I embark on this weekend's project to rewrite a piece of junk asp / access script that is failing under a very small load, probably 1000 hits a day, to PHP / MySQL. Whatever else you may glean from this thread, remember this: ACCESS IS NOT A WEB CAPABLE DATABASE, even though it's presented as if it is, sort of anyway. Access runs your secretary's office db stuff great. MS SQL is, but Access isn't. So you'll be paying even more to get that site up and running long term.
JakeJeck, by the way, if you know of a good quality shared IIS hoster with Urchin stats could you sticky me the company, I haven't been able to find any.
[ Message was edited by: lizardz 03/18/2005 12:25 pm ]
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langard
Joined: Dec 15, 1999
# Posts: 339
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Posted: 2005-Mar-20 08:55
"..that blows everything away..." until you have to call Redmond for the source code when your drag 'n drop deal fails.
I'm not against convenience. I'm against co-dependence.
Ever bought a combo TV/VCR/CD player? The problem with .NET is that when any aspect of it goes wrong, you don't get to watch TV, a movie or play music until the WHOLE SYSTEM is fixed.
PHP, on the other hand, is built so that it can actually change it's own algorithms to fit the sub-routines - if necessary - without an act of Congress using a free MySQL database. In other words, it's flexible AND evolutionary in scope. Oracle can, but it costs $40,000 minimum to play in their sand box and you still have the combo VCR...etc.
RDBMS, unfortunately, is pretty much a matter of taste and reputation rather than a choice driven by efficiency and reliability.
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lizardz
Joined: Nov 12, 2004
# Posts: 1394
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Posted: 2005-Mar-20 22:24
"I'm against co-dependence."
"In other words, it's flexible AND evolutionary in scope."
That's well said. It takes a while to learn what this means. I prefer using products that are built not to satisfy some internal company agenda, whether it's MS, Sun, or whatever, but to satisfy the directly involved user community. Only open source products can fulfill this role, since only open source products release their full source code for community review.
From PERL to PHP to Python, make your programming learning time count for something other than just learning how MS decided you should be doing it now.
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JakeJeck
Joined: Nov 15, 2000
# Posts: 131
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Posted: 2005-Mar-24 20:08
Fine, stick with PHP. Less job competition for us real programmers.
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lizardz
Joined: Nov 12, 2004
# Posts: 1394
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Posted: 2005-Mar-26 08:54
"Less job competition for us real programmers."
Don't make me laugh. There will always be room for both, corporate drones are in high demand nowadays. "real programmerss'? that's really funny. Hacks, not hackers. Then some good programmers too, the ones doing something just for the money. I had that option, but ASP makes me sick, so I don't use it. As far as I'm concerned, anyone willing to work with that stuff needs to get paid a lot.
[ Message was edited by: lizardz 03/26/2005 01:04 am ]
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langard
Joined: Dec 15, 1999
# Posts: 339
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Posted: 2005-Mar-26 09:51
Whoa! Let us go a little bit easier here. JakeJek probably knows that "real" programming started with A and then went to C and then C+ and then C++...What happened to "B"? Well, it didn't work, so they went directly to C.
No matter, the "real" purpose of these forums - as I understand them - is to help people as best as possible. So rather than dispute things like Quantum v. Newtonian - or who is 'real' or not - I tend to come down on the side of what's more COMFORTABLE for each person.
If you really like what you are using, stick with it. It is a good thing. But, on the other hand, if you are trying to promote a single revelation of your own as "killer apps", you are just breaking Walnuts, eating the contents and starving for lack of understanding.
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lizardz
Joined: Nov 12, 2004
# Posts: 1394
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Posted: 2005-Mar-26 20:54
Yeah, I was going to mention the c languages in the context of 'real programming', most 'real' programmers consider scripting languages as toys, although I love how user friendly they are. I certainly don't consider myself a 'real' programmer by any stretch. And I'm very happy to leave ASP to those who prefer it, as JakeJek noted, less competition for me, LOL.
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JakeJeck
Joined: Nov 15, 2000
# Posts: 131
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Posted: 2005-Mar-28 15:55
lizardz,
Since you consider C a real language, what do you consider c#?
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lizardz
Joined: Nov 12, 2004
# Posts: 1394
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Posted: 2005-Mar-28 21:20
If I said I'd spent any time considering c# I'd be lying. If I were to consider a programming language, I'd consider what the projects I'd want to be working on used, which in most cases I think would be c++. I have no interest in MS languages though, even though you can run c# I guess, I wouldn't do it, if I were to be a c type programmer, which I'm not. I'd also take a look at what the programmers I respect use, and why.
By the way, just finished translating one of the worst scripts, done in asp, to php, which means we can pull that IIS/asp garbage and move to a *nix server, with Apache, mod_rewrite, etc. While I'm sure I did many things wrong, I think most people would agree when comparing the two that one was done by a real programmer, and one wasn't.
And now I can comment out blocks of programming with real comments, no more of those silly ' things. Did asp ever join the real world and support comment blocks by the way? [you know: /* comment */. Not that I care, hopefully this will be the last ASP work I ever do.
If you're any good and a client ever needs asp programming maybe I'll check out your work.
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langard
Joined: Dec 15, 1999
# Posts: 339
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Posted: 2005-Mar-29 04:23
Okay, these are the search engine forums. That means Web-based algorythms looking for the bottom line - content. C# has the same overall impact in the search engines - and the Internet itself - as PASCAL and FORTRAN long before it, namely zero. Nada. Null set.
C-anything is created for hardware/firmware/software programming. Not Webware. Great for industrial apps, chips, transmitters, recievers, etc., but not the Web. Sure, it runs the Web, it just doesn't have anything to do with what HAPPENS on the Internet itself. C# is not artistic or colorful or even remotely enjoining by itself. Like every other hardcore language it must submit to silly markup language just to be seen by a browser.
Most long-time programmers like me never could figure out if Sun's Java was ever a Platform, an Environment, a System, a Server or just a strange, proprietary daemon that decides to commit suicide with no warning.
Forget about all the "compiled v. not-compiled" BS. Sure, it's all just a bunch of Binary and flags and TCPIP and packets and all that. The Web certainly doesn't exist because a bunch of C programmers thought it would be a cool idea worldwide.
So it boils down to what silly markup language you want to use to get your content successfully seen. I choose PHP. You choose ASP. Tomatoes v. Tomatoes. C programming on the Web is the equivalent of trying to describe your father - to someone who inquired about him - by giving them his DNA sample.
[ Message was edited by: langard 03/28/2005 09:12 pm ]
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lizardz
Joined: Nov 12, 2004
# Posts: 1394
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Posted: 2005-Mar-29 04:38
"C-anything is created for hardware/firmware/software programming. Not Webware. Great for industrial apps, chips, transmitters, recievers, etc., but not the Web. Sure, it runs the Web, it just doesn't have anything to do with what HAPPENS on the Internet itself."
Sorry, have to disagree, well, not so much disagree, but correct a slight mistatement, Google for example started off running python then switched to compiled C++ modules, as do a lot of super heavy traffic sites, that or Java anyway from what I gather. So yes, C++ or whatever, these languages do run the web, sometimes anyway.
But we had just drifted off topic, reference was to 'real' programming languages, so of course you have to talk about those types of programming languages if that's the reference.
"The Web certainly doesn't exist because a bunch of C programmers thought it would be a cool idea worldwide. "
Hmmm, I think actually the web does in fact exist because a bunch of programmers thought it would be a cool idea, no offense. To me Unix and the web are almost one and the same thing, + TCP/IP to move the data, no accident that, Apache, Unix, all of it, networking software, each piece written because a bunch of C programmers thought it would in fact be a cool idea, well, the us government had something to do with it too of course. So let's raise a glass in toast to those guys who actually had the vision to make it happen, and for making it possible for me not have to ever get dressed to go to work ;-)
[ Message was edited by: lizardz 03/28/2005 08:49 pm ]
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langard
Joined: Dec 15, 1999
# Posts: 339
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Posted: 2005-Mar-29 06:49
You are right that the U.S. Government created the Internet in 1958, but they never thought a couple of guys/gals at Cal exchanging some secret text transmissions to a couple of guys/gals at MIT - just because they couldn't share equations over the phone - would turn into some brand of unmatched global communications device.
When you talk about C# or any other core programming language, you're talking about a pure PROCESSOR, not a messenger. Markup Language - as a messenger only - is always ultimately subservient to it's parent Processor Language on the Platform/Server. But while the processor is the trunk of the tree, it cannot bear fruit (read put it on a screen) until it is "synthesized" into a form that can be read from Bangladesh to Bangor, Maine.
Enter markup. No scientist in '58 who was in his/her (nearly) right mind ever thought transmissions might include color, spreadsheets or graphics. On the other hand, Binary and ASCII aren't exactly the medium Monet or Pizarro would have guessed would become the most prevalent expose of their work in history.
All the hype about c# being "organic" and "elegant" is the same drivel they rolled out with the last improved method. It's just a base language. There will be another, better one soon.
How Google, for instance, PROCESSES the information it gathers is irrelevant. Personally, I think they use a sophisticated squirrel cage and a Lottery vaccuum. But how we present it to them IS relevant - which brings us back to the PHP, ASP, CFM, blah question of which is better for show and tell.
Everybody claims they are "accelerating" their brand X markup language by "compiling" or "pre-processing" or whatever. While that may make sense to some, it's total horseshit since it would - for all intents and purposes - render the language static, not dynamic. Brand X Version 6 would have to follow version 5 by two days max, ad infinitum.
Few people have to run a Mandelbot Fractal on their site to see if their pages are being delivered succinctly. So how can we help a guy who just wanted to know about a workable PHP editor in the first place?
[ Message was edited by: langard 03/28/2005 11:01 pm ]
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lizardz
Joined: Nov 12, 2004
# Posts: 1394
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Posted: 2005-Mar-29 07:39
"So how can we help a guy who just wanted to know about a workable PHP editor in the first place?"
He wanted a wysiwypwegwphpp product: what you see is what you probably will never get with php editor. Lots of good text editors out there, but he was looking for something where you click a few buttons and php is running. Dreamweaver will do this to some extent.
As far as I know, when you put a request to google, it's a c module that spits out the html back at you, same exact process as if it were a perl thing running in cgi or whatever, no scripting languages in the way. Same as anything else, js error, a c thing pops up a js error box, not rocket science. Last time I checked c languages have no problem creating output, although I wouldn't want to be the one making them do that, not so fun unless that kind of thing rings your bell.
Read up on google a bit, I think you missed something. In general, for 99.999% of users, you're completely right, so in this context I'll just say you're completely right, as far as most user's are concerned.
Since the guy's editor question was pretty much answered right away, the thread is drifting off to more interesting areas. Should we keep it alive? Should we let it die? Only the next poster can decide that for themselves.
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