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bhartzer
Staff
Joined: Jun 08, 2000
# Posts: 7042
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Posted: 2003-Jul-09 17:11
Rivux, I would be careful about revealing the amount you're making as this violates the TOS of the Google Adsense program.
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Curt
Joined: Eons Ago
# Posts: 3735
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Posted: 2003-Jul-09 21:55
Rivux,
You might think my reasoning is ludicrous. That's OK--your's is too. You are entitled to your opinion. I still like to have some numbers and that's how I like it. I feel very uninformed not knowing anything. And no Google is not running it like an affiliate program either. with affiliate programs, they disclose what you are making per click. Google does NOT do that either. I cannot see how you can accept that. You would never do this for any other program so why are you OK with this Google behavior? Are you google blinded?
As far as 10 cents goes, I'd rather make 50% of 10 cents than 2% of 10 cents. How about you???
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europeforvisitors
Joined: May 23, 2002
# Posts: 23
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Posted: 2003-Jul-10 01:38
Curt wrote:
"But no I have to take time to sign up, get approved, and take more time redesigning my site to fit their criteria, remove other ads and affiliate referral links that I am making some money on and do some risk taking all in an attempt to do some testing the waters..."
Signing up takes a minute or two. You don't have to "take time" to get approved; nobody's asking you to put your site on hold while Google reviews your application.
Redesign your site? Why? All you have to do is paste in a snippet of JavaScript to display a banner or a skyscraper (your choice). That takes very little time if you have a standard border on your pages (via SSI, FrontPage shared borders, etc.). I doubt if it took me more than a minute to change the ad-network code on my pages to AdSense code.
And where do you get the idea that you have to remove other ads and affiliate links? You don't, with the possible exception of text ads such as Sprinks.
Risk? What risk? You paste in a snippet of code and see how much money you make. If AdSense makes money for you, great. If not, delete the code. There's no long-term contract--you can quit whenever you want.
BTW, I haven't seen any evidence that AdSense is cannibalizing my affiliate sales. It's icing on the cake--and a very generous layer of icing, at that.
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OAC
Staff
Joined: Jan 25, 2001
# Posts: 6805
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Posted: 2003-Jul-10 03:10
" I'd rather make 50% of 10 cents than 2% of 10 cents."
What about 2% of $10.00? From your posts so far, you appear to be saying that you would rather earn 50% of 10 cents (5 cents) than earn 2% of $10 (20 cents), because 50% is fairer. Me, I would rather earn the 20 cents thanks and I could care less how much Google is making.
In respect of jcokos's point, Google should clearly define Impressions, Clicks, CTR and Earnings for webmasters. It is a new product - I am sure they will provide better explanations in the near future.
Hopefully Adsense management is reading this thread, as I post. 
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Curt
Joined: Eons Ago
# Posts: 3735
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Posted: 2003-Jul-10 06:00
europeforvisitors said:
Redesign your site? Why? All you have to do is paste in a snippet of JavaScript to display a banner or a skyscraper (your choice). That takes very little time if you have a standard border on your pages (via SSI, FrontPage shared borders, etc.). I doubt if it took me more than a minute to change the ad-network code on my pages to AdSense code.
You really can't figure that one out??? People have to redesign their sites if they don't have columns set up for the google type ads.
And don't give me that 1 minute claim for updating. That's market hype--Simple to implement but still time consuming when you do it manually across a couple hundred pages.
It always takes much longer than the claimed one minute (Yeah one minute per page once the page has been laid out with proper HTML). And horizontal ads aren't very good for converting so verticles is the way to go which could require lots of recoding on lots of pages for a large group of people. Not everyone is using SSI or the other methods you speak of. You know better than that.
OAC said:
What about 2% of $10.00? From your posts so far, you appear to be saying that you would rather earn 50% of 10 cents (5 cents) than earn 2% of $10 (20 cents), because 50% is fairer.
No, did not say that. I was very clear in my explanation but alas it must not have been clear enough.
I said: I'd rather make 50% of 10 cents than 2% of 10 cents.
You can translate that right? I'll do it for you...
I'd rather make 50% of $10 than 2% of $10. There. Do you get it now?
Hopefully Adsense management is reading this thread, as I post.
Yes perhaps they'll be more forthcoming in the future hopefully. It's in our interests to know as much details so we can do the best in guaging the program. People hide things when they want to get away with something. I'm surprised a few are being so naive about this.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Google is deliberately trying to take advantage of us, but it does leave too much for the advertiser to imagine. Reliable facts are better than hiding the details.
Currently, if Google cuts commissions down, you have to guess at why commissions aren't as big as they were before. However in reality, you won't know if it's because the bids are lower or if Google decides to cut commission rates. At least be open about the commission rates.
I'm not downing the google thing in reality. It's still new and a clever idea the way it works. I just don't appreciate having certain data hidden so that I can't do guaging of sorts.
I want to know, simple as that.
[ Message was edited by: Curt 07/09/2003 10:04 pm ]
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Curt
Joined: Eons Ago
# Posts: 3735
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Posted: 2003-Jul-10 06:16
And where do you get the idea that you have to remove other ads and affiliate links? You don't, with the possible exception of text ads such as Sprinks.
It says on this page: https://www.google.com/adsense/faq#eligibility1Q: Can I sign-up if I am already a part of an ad network?
A: Yes. However, you cannot run other text-based ads on the same pages as the Google AdWords ads.
What do you think text links for affiliate referral URL's are?
--> Text-based ads.
Any text-based ad that is non-google has to be removed on pages running AdSense unless Google says otherwise. If I'm wrong about that technicality, then so much the better, but that's what is inferred by that FAQ, fairly clear.
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OAC
Staff
Joined: Jan 25, 2001
# Posts: 6805
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Posted: 2003-Jul-10 09:46
"No, did not say that. I was very clear in my explanation "
Alas not, indeed. Was it not you that made this comment, and others similar to it, ealier in this thread? :
"If I knew that Google was only paying 2% of ads, I wouldn't bother with them"
Hence my example of 2% of $10.
"I'd rather make 50% of $10 than 2% of $10. There. Do you get it now? "
That doesn't answer the "question" I posed, so let me ask you again but differently: Would you prefer to earn 2% of $10 or 50% of 10 cents?
[ Message was edited by: OAC 07/10/2003 02:15 am ]
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e10
Joined: Dec 10, 2002
# Posts: 409
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Posted: 2003-Jul-10 11:27
All I know is that I have made more in three weeks with Adsense that I did in ONE YEAR with CJ.
Couldn´t give a monkey-s, what the percentages work out as.
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Candleman
Joined: Jul 12, 2002
# Posts: 16
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Posted: 2003-Jul-10 15:41
If I were Google I wouldn't tell what the percentage was.
I do know this from prior experience with running an adwords campaign...The percentage must be at least 30%, probably more.
I personally don't care what the percentage is. I do know that the minimum amount is easily made at this point. Best affiliate program to date.
Like Momma use to say "The early bird gets the worm" or "He who hesitates is lost"
While some argue and hesitate over the program. Trying to analyze it to death, there are some like myself who are reaping the rewards. So, please continue to calculate, analize, and hesitate while the few make money.
Just my opinion.
[ Message was edited by: Candleman 07/10/2003 12:24 pm ]
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europeforvisitors
Joined: May 23, 2002
# Posts: 23
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Posted: 2003-Jul-10 20:04
>>You really can't figure that one out??? People have to redesign their sites if they don't have columns set up for the google type ads.<<
So run the horizontal banners.
>>And don't give me that 1 minute claim for updating. That's market hype--Simple to implement but still time consuming when you do it manually across a couple hundred pages.<<
It wasn't "market hype" for me--I just changed the code in my top border with a quick cut-and-paste and republished the site. My work was done almost instantly; my computer and cable modem did the rest.
Granted, the job would have been harder if my 3,500 or so pages didn't use include files for the top, side, and bottom borders, but anyone who's a serious Web publisher (even a mom-and-pop Web publisher) knows enough not to create a site with hundreds of pages that need to be updated invidually every time a border element changes. In your case, you can either bite the bullet and fix a problem that's only going to become more of a nuisance as your site grows, or you can try placing the AdSense code on a limited number of pages to see if the program is worth your time. Or you can opt out altogether. But please don't assume that implementing AdSense is a burden for everyone, because it isn't.
>>And horizontal ads aren't very good for converting so verticles is the way to go which could require lots of recoding on lots of pages for a large group of people.<
The horizontal banners are doing very well for me. Don't confuse the performace of targeted text banners with the run-of-network display banners that most ad networks supply to mom-and-pop content sites.
>>Not everyone is using SSI or the other methods you speak of. You know better than that.<<
See my statement above--along with CandleMan's comment that "While some argue and hesitate over the program...there are some like myself who are reaping the rewards. So, please continue to calculate, analize, and hesitate while the few make money."
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Curt
Joined: Eons Ago
# Posts: 3735
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Posted: 2003-Jul-10 20:59
Everyone here makes some valid points.
OAC said:
That doesn't answer the "question" I posed, so let me ask you again but differently: Would you prefer to earn 2% of $10 or 50% of 10 cents?
You know as well as I do that 2% of $10 is more than 50% of 10 cents.
OAC and others, which would you rather make, 50% of $10 or 2% of $10? That's the point!
e10 said:
All I know is that I have made more in three weeks with Adsense that I did in ONE YEAR with CJ.
Couldn't give a monkey-s, what the percentages work out as.
You must not have a site that works well with affiliate programs or don't know how to rank and/or target your pages--whichever the case. Not all sites are suited for it. I have a site that when it gets about 20,000 page views per month, I'm able to earn roughly $2500/month on that one site due to it's very targeted nature. People find what they want and buy the products listed. Wish I had 20 more sites like it (hmmm perhaps I will).
AdSense would have to pay me approximately 50 cents to $1 per click in order to make it worth while.
But with a percentage of 2% of $10, that only works to 20 cents. In other words Adsense could cut my income 60-80% at that rate. As you all know, most people don't ever bid that high unless their crazy or perhaps have a highly successful product that has huge mark-ups that people are willing to buy. With bids actually floating around $2-$3 on the high end average (and that might be an over-statement) 2% gives you peanuts in comparison. With that, higher percentages are necessary to make a decent possible income.
It all boils down to this: The point is everyone should want to know the percentages. It affects your income.
Every bit of data is gonna help us to be in the know. Are you in this thread saying that you want to be in the dark?
Google sure seems to have a steady supply of people who don't mind being ignorant about what their cut of the pie is. Oh well, what can I say.
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Pongo
Joined: May 27, 2002
# Posts: 665
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Posted: 2003-Jul-10 21:21
I think the majority of high performance type A site owners are going to demand to know the percentage & the total cost of what they are sending clicks to. It's fine that some people don't care, and google will get plenty of type bs so I'm sure they will be ok, after all they are google 
This thread didnt need to turn out like this - If you think its bad practice as I do just dont use the links. It's about principal and if it does not violate your sense of principal then go ahead and use the google links.
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thejenn
Joined: Aug 08, 2001
# Posts: 9196
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Posted: 2003-Jul-10 22:05
Curt, I just can't understand why you are being so insistant that everyone agree with you. If folks are having luck with AdSense, then I say more power to them. If you don't want to use it, I say more power to you. How does it impact you if other members of this board choose to use the program? It's one thing to disagree, it's another to insult someone based on their choice.
I'm personally interested to see how this continues to work. Affiliate programs are fine and dandy, but the reality is that a lot of content based sites simply don't stand to make a large amount of money from affiliate programs. (This site is a great example...IMO, it's far better suited to this type of ad program than it is to affiliate programs.)
Now, I agree it would be nice if Google gave more information about how the program works and how they determine how much to pay, I'd also like to see some stronger reporting options that cover things like what pages turn in the highest clicks, what ads give the highest clicks, etc... Something that allowed a site owner to work on adding more content to their site that will encourage clicks and income.
But...I don't think that the current lack of this option makes it worthwhile to completely discount AdSense as a program worth testing. As has been said, set it up on a few pages, see if it pays enough to be worthwhile. If it is, set it up on more pages. If it isn't, cancel the program. It's really not that complicated.
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OAC
Staff
Joined: Jan 25, 2001
# Posts: 6805
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Posted: 2003-Jul-11 02:57
Curt,
My bank manager isn't interested in what % I make from Google. He is interested in how much I make - i.e. dollars and cents.
So, if I make $1,900 a month from the alternative to Adsense, (eg banner advertising through an agency) but $2,600 a month from Adsense, he thinks Adsense makes sense. So do I.
I don't believe any of the contributors to this thread believe that better information from Google isn't desirable. However, they do all seem to agree (you being the exception) that it is worth a shot, despite the information not being as comprehensive as they all would prefer.
As candleman and europeforvisitors have indicated, it is additional money in the bank for them.
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westcorkweek
Joined: Sep 25, 2001
# Posts: 62
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Posted: 2003-Jul-11 23:46
One article said "Only Google could get away with this [sic]" Isn't it true? They make it so easy. I don't have time to sell ads or find good affiliate programmes. Now I am making enough in the first month to cover my annual expenses -- I don't get a very high amount of impressions!
This has been the best incentive to better optimize my site -- and I had been considering giving it up completely!
As you can drop out at any time, you can change to different methods if the results drop or if the ads become completely unsuited for the site.
I had enquired about whether they would open the links in a new window and received a very polite reply that they are thinking about it for the future, but....
I'm still happy to be involved.
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Silv
Joined: Aug 10, 1999
# Posts: 1668
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Posted: 2003-Jul-12 19:04
You really can't figure that one out??? People have to redesign their sites if they don't have columns set up for the google type ads.
I'd say the majority of sites interested in AdSense already had either Banners or Skyscrapers running already. AdSense is designed to go into the same spots, isn't it?
If the site didn't have these spots.. then they are new to implementing advertising in the first place (even if they had previously used affiliate programs) and the same time/process would be involved for implementing ANY ad network (or in-house sales).
And don't give me that 1 minute claim for updating. That's market hype--Simple to implement but still time consuming when you do it manually across a couple hundred pages.
This is definitely an aside..but you're right, that would be a pain. To avoid this in the future.. i'd strongly recommend you look into thinks like ad rotation software (or using includes to include your ads). If you hope over to the Advertising forum (under Marketing, above) I'm sure you could get information/advice on possible solutions there.
Any text-based ad that is non-google has to be removed on pages running AdSense unless Google says otherwise.
I'm obviously not google and can't speak for them, but the overall consensus (based on possible feedback from google and rejection letters) seems to be that they are specificly talking about competeing products to AdSense/AdWords such as Sprinks, SearchFeed, etc. Otherwise, one could almost say that any external link could be percieved as a text ad.. which just isn't the case.
Though some webmasters are choosing to replace affiliate work with AdSense, Affiliate programs really aren't a competing product. Their promotion methods differ, and the ways to make them successful greatly differ. (Which is an arguement for another thread!)
Regarding knowing the %'s.. I agree that I'd much rather know a static number that one is getting paid. But, on the other hand if I *am* getting paid and the effective CPM stays at an acceptable rate.. why *should* I care? The only reason I can think of is to know if you'd be better off with a different solution or selling yourself; I think it's logical that google might not want that. Beyond that, as long as they are paying well, I'm not sure the % matters except in terms of curiousity.
Some of the other constructive critisims posted are good points. The reporting definitely leaves something to be desired, and ads definitely don't seem to show up 100% of the time for 100% of traffic (Of course - show me an ad network where they do.. and I'll show you a VERY VERY happy website owner), and defaults seem to be randomly shown. It's a new product, though. It's probably not going to be perfect for a bit, but I'm sure they'll innovate and change things. It's in their best interests.
I'm using AdSense on a trial basis (ie- not everywhere) and can't argue w/ the financial results. I've increased the overall CPM seen on my sites, and made $$ off of areas that were previously bereft of redeemable financial value. That being said, I'm also not going to put all my eggs in one basket, and recommend that others don't as well. There's a number of things that could cause AdSense revenue to wane, but that's another discussion for another thread.
[ Message was edited by: Silv 07/13/2003 03:03 am ]
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pcunix
Joined: Eons Ago
# Posts: 10
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Posted: 2003-Jul-13 16:13
If you really, really want to know how much Google is paying, you can probably figure it out pretty closely, though it will take some effort.
First, you need a tightly focused site or you need to pay careful attention to your web logs in relation to Google's adsense reports. You aren't going to be able to narrow this down absolutely, but if you can catch both your site and google at the start of the day, you can probably make a pretty good guess as to what ads were clicked on.
You then need to go to to Google Adwords and create similar ads to see what you'd have to pay for them. Between that and doing searches at Google and seeing where the same ads pop up in relation to each other, you can get a pretty good idea of what the people whose ads were clicked on are paying per click.
If you let competitors ads run (I do) and have your own Google text ads for the same things they are selling, you can get very, very close to knowing what they are paying. I have Google ads and as I said, competitors whose ads run in my Adsense space, and in my opinion, Google is being pretty generous, at least right now.
Nothing says they have to keep being generous, of course, and as others have noted, the real important thing here is: does Adsense make money for you? My suspicion is that the more focused your site is, the more revelant will be the ads that Adsense sends, and high revelance means higher CTR. So I'd guess that specialized sites will do better with Adsense than more generalized sites.
Bottom line: it either is making you money or not. How they figure the percentage is unimportant.
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excell
Staff
Joined: Mar 19, 2001
# Posts: 14512
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Posted: 2003-Jul-13 16:56
As a user (consumer) I can tell you I am already sick to death of seeing AdSense advertising popping up everywhere I look. I actually just clicked on an ad about 3 screens ago and the page that came up was *total rubbish*. Do they not quality control the ads?
As a webmaster I have been watching the relevance of appearances on sites I am viewing and the competitivness of the ads to the site I am on.
I would be thinking more about the appropriatness of the model to my users than the $s in my pocket... but that's just me :D
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e10
Joined: Dec 10, 2002
# Posts: 409
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Posted: 2003-Jul-13 17:08
An excellent point from excell. There is no way to change the appearance or select styles of adsense ads and I think the good results we are currently seeing may well drop of as more webmasters add adsense banners to their sites and visitors develop blinkers to them.
Still, maybe in the future this is something that Google will address...
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pcunix
Joined: Eons Ago
# Posts: 10
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Posted: 2003-Jul-13 18:27
Well, my experience so far is that the ads I see (on my site) are usually quite relevant to the pages they appear on. YMMV, of course, and I have seen a few very odd exceptions myself.
One other point to keep in mind about what percentage Google pays or doesn't pay: market forces are very strongly at work here. Google wants its ads to run and to be successful; that is to generate good CTR. If they pay too little, Adsense won't interest us, and we'll drop it. Google certainly tracks, analyzes and thinks about every percentage point to maximize their return, just like you and I do (except they are probably a lot better at it).
One very strange one: I put a new article up the other day, a very specific review of a very specific product. It was spidered within an hour or so, and actually would popup as the number one hit if you put the specific product model number into Google search. At that point, the Adsense ads were very relevant to that article: similar products.
A few days later, that page is still in the top spot for that particular search, but the Adsense ads are the generic "I have no idea what this page is so I'll run public service ads". A day after that, and the ads are
not public service anymore, but are not the tightly focused ads that ran the first day either. I simply cannot imagine why, though of course Adwords reaching daily limits etc. could have this kind of effect.
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