Is there any way I can get the font to stay the same size no matter what text size the user has set?

I remember once I made my entire site using a small text setting I was shocked when I realised what mistake I had made .

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Is there any way I can get the font to stay the same size no matter what text size the user has set?

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Do you really want to take control away from the user?

The ability to control my browser exists for a reason and is one of the great strengths of the Internet. Not everyone has the same tastes. Not everyone has the same physical capacities. If I set my text to large, it may be because I can’t read your site at a smaller size. Forcing me to ascribe to your notion of what’s “right” isn’t going to impress me with your design, it’s just going to make me go away.

I don’t mean to pick on your or your question, Ryan, but I think it represents the tip of a fairly serious iceberg. Web designers, being creative people, want to express EXACTLY what see in their mind’s eye, and I think they get frustrated when the Internet makes that difficult. They very understandably want absolute and total control over their own creative vision. The problem is that absolute and total control is antithetical to the flexibility that has historically been the Internet’s greatest strength. The Web was designed to work for everyone, regardless of hardware, regardless of software, and pretty much regardless of physical limitations. The only thing that makes that possible is flexibility. Today’s web designers, intent on creating their own vision, seem hell bent on destroying the greater vision.

Creating the perfect design when you have absolute and total control is easy. It’s also a bit anal. The challenge is to create a design that accommodates your own vision WITHOUT usurping the rights of those who view it. It won’t be your perfect design, it won’t be exactly what you want. But it will, I think, be the better design.

My concern really is I think more people will stick aroudn if they see how I intend it rather than how it looks in there browser.

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The problem is that absolute and total control is antithetical to the flexibility that has historically been the Internet’s greatest strength.

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Oh common now... it's just text lighten up, were not trying to make you wear the star of David on you clothes in the 1940s.

I believe text size all depends on the target audience of your site.

I have a graphic/web design site [in profile]. My site happens to be a fixed width and height. I want it to look a certain way. If the text starts getting larger my web site "falls apart". Therefore, (aside from maintenance issues) I control my text size with CSS. IE cannot tweak a site that uses CSS to control text size.

The truth is, if I was designing a site for an elderly audience I would make sure the design works well with larger text and use appropriate colors (i.e. white bg black text).

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Creating the perfect design when you have absolute and total control is easy.

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It's all about being visitor friendly, but you have to know who your visitors are.

While I agree target audience is important, Alex, I don’t think it justifies purposeful exclusion. Your site doesn’t target the elderly? Neither does the restaurant down the street from me. But they nonetheless provide handicap parking and a ramp for wheelchairs. Television knows their target market pretty well, I think, but they still have closed captioning. (I won’t even mention that your label suggests old people are the only ones with physical limitations. Sadly, that’s not the case.)

Unfortunately, those ramps and closed captioning had to mandated by law and cost a lot of extra money. Yet, nearly the same functionality is already built into the web. We have to work extra hard to obscure it. And we are.

I would never suggest that Van Gogh should have painted for the visually impaired, because doing so destroys the message. But web sites, like restaurants and television, usually exist to do more than just look good. Most serve a purpose beyond being eye candy, and that purpose shouldn’t be withheld from a few because they don’t meet some individual’s criteria of target audience.

Still, let’s set aside moral questions, and even pragmatic issues, and look at it from the designer’s perspective.

As an artist, Alex, you’ve already learned to work within the constraints of the medium. It’s easy to claim your oil paints “fall apart” because the canvas wasn’t primed, or your acrylics “fall apart” because the paint dries too fast, but those are simply the facts of the medium. Good design takes them into account, because failure to do so is NOT good design.

I personally thinks it’s possible to make a web page look good without also making it a static carving in stone. The Internet is a new medium, unlike any we’ve seen before, where the result is a collaboration between the designer and the viewer. That’s its strength. It will never offer us the vibrancy of oil or the majesty of architecture or the depth of a subtle water color. But it CAN offer us what those cannot if we learn to embrace its dynamic nature rather than fear it. Take away the contribution of the viewer, exalt the ego of the designer over that of the visitor, and you turn the web page into just another electronic magazine page. Designers who insist on trying to capture the Guernica on a web page are doomed to failure, because that’s not the strength of the medium. Only those who allow and encourage the viewer to resize the Guernica, to twist it and turn it inside out, are going to be able to make an artistic impact.

Is that more difficult? You bet. Can it be done and still look good? I think it can. But as always, it will take artists who are able to look past the old ways and think in new, more fluid dimensions. Static is dead. May it rest in peace.

Of course, everyone makes their own decisions, has their own goals, and that’s cool. There aren’t any laws mandating accessibility to your web site (at least not yet), and not everyone will welcome the challenge inherent in fluid design. It would be pretty boring if we all did things the same way or thought the same thoughts. I’m just suggesting there are alternatives to making your web site look like a magazine page. I happen to think they’re not only good alternatives, but also exciting ones.

Topics we've discussed:

Americans with Disabilities Act applied to web sites?
What about bobby?
Building a site for ADA compliance

Sure jkcity put your text in graphics

Honestly, css is probably a better bet.

These links may help you determine a 'user friendly' text size,

these show actual comparisons in IE vs NS by size:
devhead: the 'right' size[/ur]
[url=http://www.zdnet.com/devhead/static/css_chart/chart.pixel.html]devhead: by px
about.com: about fonts great article noting the differences between mac and windows

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Ron, WoW. Talk about going off on a tangent!

First of all, who's Ryan?

While I do not debate that you have a point, I think you have a rather harsh view of web designers in general. Please remember, many of us do not have the option to choose how we design a site - especially if we are paid for it. Most of us have to do what the client wants, regardless of sane options presented in defense of Web Standards and usability.

"Today’s web designers, intent on creating their own vision, seem hell bent on destroying the greater vision." Isn't the greater vision a combination of individual 'visions' coming together in one accssable space? Do all visions have to be the same? Should they all be shared equally, or be limited to an audience whom is prepared to share. If I want to build a flash site, that is my choice. If you want to view it, that is yours - but you need the Flash plug in. If my client wants to pay me for a Flash site, I need to put food on the table for my family - your darn tootin I'm taking his money (provided he is satisfied with my work )

"The challenge is to create a design that accommodates your own vision WITHOUT usurping the rights of those who view it." So - I create a site in English. But someone from Japan wants to view it.. should I learn Japanese so I can translate it on the off chance that someone who's native tounge is Japanese can read it? As lame as that comment is, hopefully it relays the point. I am a big supporter of web standards. I believe in validation and making a site accessable to all who chose to view it. But face it. At times there are choice to be made and they are not always in line with what is 'right'. I am building a site that relys heavily on CSS right now. That site will not be viewable as intended in Netscrape. Am I a bad person for this? Not at all. Either view the text (which will be as presentable as possible) or don't. That Is Your Choice. I am eliminating you as a guest - but that is My choice.

"Good design takes them into account, because failure to do so is NOT good design." This is laughable. Due to lack of standards compliance by web browsers - basic CSS and Tables fall apart in Netscrape. I can build a site 100% validated and it will still be junk in NS4x. There are things simply beyond the designers control such as compliance and clients. This does not mean the site is not acceptable. And as to your "oil..." and "...acrylics 'fall apart'" theory.. obviously you have not worked with them much Sometimes that is intended, if it's not then the artist is not familiar with the medium nor how to handle it.

That would be me.

Thank you to all three of you for the advice given.

insert size 9 1/2 #2 into mouth

The data available on the Web should be a windfall for them, but more and more we are using techniques that lock them out.

Ron, could you do a Gazette article about the problem with links to resources where designers can learn how to do it right?

I think I will build a "skin" for the new iForums that will be specifically for the vision impaired. Not hard to do and we can lead the way.

Overall, it is not necessary to abandon fixed pixel sizes for our main sites. How hard would it be to put a graphic that leads to a version that uses scalable fonts instead. Everybody wins.

You can totally control the display size of a font but using CSS (Cascading Style Sheets) and specifying the font size as "px". No matter what the user calls for in font size, they get the pixel size you specify. However, this means that people with poor eyesight are completely locked out. How tough would it be to create a second page and just change the CSS specs to call for varialble sized fonts. It also makes the site owner look like a hero.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I would hope that we, as a caring community could explore some effective ways to satisfy everyone's needs. We've never been an exclusionary community except for Scumbags and spammers.

Using CCS is the answer, (by specifing the font size as 'px') but, poeple with poor eyesite would struggle to read your site...

maybe you could place a link (or button) on your web page for users to view that page in a bigger font size....

Kev

Personally if I'm squinting at a page to read it and am interested enough to care, I'll increase the font size and resign myself to the inevitable grotty result..