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how to increse the google rating on my site (In: Google)
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quality-ins
Joined: Jan 18, 2001
# Posts: 360
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Posted: 2005-Nov-16 03:39
I just caught wind that google has published their analytics software. [link]
Is anybody using it?
It's supposed to be free.... I'm sure it will be free until google gets everyone hooked.
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Logan
Joined: Aug 14, 2002
# Posts: 3749
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Posted: 2005-Nov-17 18:52
I can see them keeping it 'free' - matters how you value things.
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circuito
Joined: May 13, 2005
# Posts: 88
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Posted: 2005-Nov-18 22:50
Do you think Google will tie in the data they compile from Analytics into their search results. I have good rankings now, and I am afraid that if I start using analytics, that it might affect my results...
Any ideas?
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dirty_shame
Joined: Aug 28, 2005
# Posts: 191
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Posted: 2005-Nov-19 00:51
No. Their own algorythms are already more analytic than the Urchin Analytics, at least in so far as evaluating the relevance of pages to include in their search index which is their prime product and sole concern. Different kettle of fish.
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lizardz
Joined: Nov 12, 2004
# Posts: 1394
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Posted: 2005-Nov-19 01:31
yes, I think they will use them. Why? Because analytics will give them valuable data about user behavior once users have left google. They want this to work on further modifying the serps to give the users what they are searching for.
Why do you think they bought urchin then proceeded to shut it down? They want the data for tracking purposes, that's why they are giving one of the most expensive products out there away for free.
The extensive tracking of user data is a significant part of the march 31 patent application, the aquisition of urchin was not an accident.
Side note: it appears that google will not even support new urchin releases at all, which is too bad since urchin is a much better product, since it works off server stats. analytics requires a javascript addition to each page for tracking, which means analytics won't tell you anything about any type of bot activity, you could get slammed by a massive bot driven denial of service attack and you'd never even know it.
I'll pass on this one, analog is fine.
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mteasdal
Joined: Eons Ago
# Posts: 376
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Posted: 2005-Nov-19 21:14
amen analog is a great solid app that is free that keeps my data private.
I have not looked too deep into this Urchin product because every time I look into a google app it seems to have some type of spy ware involved in giving them back some type of data. Such as google cookies, google toolbar, and google gmail. I currently like google earth but still wonder about what else I loaded in the backend. When I found out google toolbar updates without asking and records web surfing habits and reports back to google I have become very cautious on anything they dish out.
They are the data mining masters and anytime they can get data they will mine it into money. Their stockholders demand it and make sure they don’t give stuff away. I hire moles by mistake I don’t load them into my systems on purpose. LOL
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lizardz
Joined: Nov 12, 2004
# Posts: 1394
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Posted: 2005-Nov-19 22:17
They are the data mining masters and anytime they can get data they will mine it into money. Their stockholders demand it and make sure they don’t give stuff away. I hire moles by mistake I don’t load them into my systems on purpose.
Yes, exactly. At some point, Google is going to lose its magic aurora and people will start to actually think about just what it is they are paying for these 'free' services. But until that point, google will continue to be the company that can do no wrong, or 'evil'.
Willingly handing to google your site's actual performance data is not one of the wisest moves you can make long term, although short term I can see certain benefits. Like most short term things in seo though, it pays to think a little bit ahead of the curve, anticipate problems before they appear.
But there will be plenty of people who think giving a large corporation as much of their site's data as possible for free is a good idea. If this was microsoft, only the most clueless would accept this on face value, but Google gets a free pass.
Plus, you don't even own your own stats, if their servers are down, if something goes wrong, bang, down goes your stats. Next Google will offer you free hosting, and there will be people out there who jump on that too.
These aren't even real stats, they only will be counting visitors with javascript enabled. That's useless. This is a product for suckers as far as I'm concerned.
And they are already offering limited free ISP wireless in mountain view, of course they will have access to all that user behavior data too. And there are almost no meaningful laws controlling this type of data. I can see it now, MS is master of your desktop, Google is master of your data. Maybe they'll even come to an understanding one day and form an alliance.
It's stuff like this that makes me understand more and more just what the actual point behind open source /free software is: you control your own stuff, to whatever degree you want.
Unless google changes their minds, no further urchin licenses are being released, the urchin site is already significantly changed, no more urchin hoster listings for example, those went down this week. So all those urchin fans, too bad, adwords + analytics or no urchin. But I'm not in that situation, I don't use that type of junk, although some clients insist on it, but I think they will start learning too after a while what the long term price of hooking yourself into proprietary systems actually is.
[ Message was edited by: lizardz 11/19/2005 03:34 pm ]
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philh
Joined: Sep 14, 2001
# Posts: 3050
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Posted: 2005-Nov-19 22:50
Now that's a post
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dirty_shame
Joined: Aug 28, 2005
# Posts: 191
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Posted: 2005-Nov-21 07:42
Maybe I'm missing something. Let's say Google/Urchin has a mirror of your logs, but only for those pages you choose to install their script on. So what?
Where's the danger? They can't profile your visitors with what Urchin collects. Sure they'll know the frequency and location of your traffic, and what harm does that harbor? They have no handle on age, ethnicity, finacial status, gender, etc,. It's pretty generic stuff.
Just how would they use that information to subvert SE results? Are you suggesting that they will actually use what they gather from Urchin to penalize or diminish a particular sites' relevance? Where's the upside in that for them?
If you want to be in complete control of how you share data, don't use Urchin. But that's all it is, a control issue. This whole blanket condemnation that wells up from the old adage that "information is power" doesn't cut it with the Web. Urching isn't some kind of spam/phishing power-play designed to yank the guts out of your global standing. It also isn't some kind of vile spyware created to steal your identity or anyone elses'.
Google wants to produce a better product and they want the best information they can get in order to do that. So they offer Urchin as a service and as a means for them to collect some competent stats. Isn't it more effective to approach webmasters who control the sites, offer an elective service and get the data there rather than trying to glean similar information from a client-side browser or plugin? That's been tried before with questionable results.
I'm not going to burn Google at the stake until somebody can justify the paranoia that surrounds anything done on a large scale. The entire original concept of the Web is "holistic" by nature. The biggest communication device in the history of civilisation depends upon public data (read information) sharing.
So why hoard the info you don't have to protect for any good reason? We're not grinding on anybody's sacred privacy policies here or violating their civil rights. Urchin is just a "what, where, when" program without the "who and the why".
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mteasdal
Joined: Eons Ago
# Posts: 376
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Posted: 2005-Nov-21 20:12
"I'm not going to burn Google at the stake until somebody can justify the paranoia"
Here are some links to the spy/privacy issues I have with google.
Google's immortal cookie and other issues 1-9 Issues and I bet they will add Urchin to their number 10 position.
[link]
GMail Privacy Issues
[link]
The Risk of Programs That Update Automatically (Like Google toolBar)
[link]
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mteasdal
Joined: Eons Ago
# Posts: 376
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Posted: 2005-Nov-22 01:15
I like this one...
GOOGLE ANALYTICS TERMS OF SERVICE
[link]
"Unless You notify Google otherwise in writing, You hereby grant to Google and its wholly owned subsidiaries a limited license to use Your trade names, trademarks, service marks, logos, domain names and other distinctive brand features ("Brand Features" in presentations, marketing materials, customer lists, and financial reports. Further, Unless You notify Google otherwise in writing, Google and its wholly owned subsidiaries retain the right to identify You as a valued customer and optionally issue a press release that, at a minimum, discloses You have licensed the Product and that the Product is Your preferred web analytics package."
This was a good read
Heading: Google's Free Urchin will Create Many Urchins As Competition Struggles
[link]
"I have spoken to a lawyer and her reading of the privacy statement and the T&Cs does not restrict Google from using the information you and they are gathering... and as they are hosting the results... possession is 9/10ths of the law...."
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lizardz
Joined: Nov 12, 2004
# Posts: 1394
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Posted: 2005-Nov-22 02:45
"Maybe I'm missing something. Let's say Google/Urchin has a mirror of your logs, but only for those pages you choose to install their script on. So what?
Where's the danger? They can't profile your visitors with what Urchin collects. Sure they'll know the frequency and location of your traffic, and what harm does that harbor"
Ah, to by young and naive, or any other age, it's a beautiful thing, absolutely. Let's see, I'll give one reason: google tracks user data for click throughs, they integrate your site's logs into that use behavior data, then they decide that your site is not in fact a very good match for a wide range of searches because users all leave your site, maybe because they found what they wanted quickly, whatever. Looking at this data, google then drops your site out of the top serps. That's just one possibility.
I think you've missed something pretty fundamental here re google: google is not your friend, at best they are in an uncomfortable partnership with you and your site, but it's a partnership where you want to keep as much to yourself as possible. Why? Because they aren't a good partner, you can't trust them.
Rather than ask what you are asking, ask the opposite: how can you know that they won't harm your site at some point by you allowing them to process all your site's user data?
If you have a way of knowing that they will never do this you have interesting psychic abilities. So it's safest to assume that they will do what most big companies will do, what they feel like, until someone gets so messed up that they end up suing their pants off. Assume the worst and no large company will ever disappoint you.
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mteasdal
Joined: Eons Ago
# Posts: 376
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Posted: 2005-Nov-22 04:31
"So it's safest to assume that they will do what most big companies will do, what they feel like, until someone gets so messed up that they end up suing their pants off"
*SMILE* When you give them your data for free there is no consideration (money) changing hands. Can you sue when you give them your intellectual property for free? After you pay the 5 bucks for more traffic I guess someone can.
lizardz has said more of what I am thinking too.
Years ago a wise businessman told me this...
"Trust is the most important thing in any relationship" As soon as trust is broken things are never the same again. He told me about a partner that broke his trust and how the relationship went from bad to worse. As soon as you don't trust your partner you need to stop the partnership. If you have lost that trust you can't sleep at night because you think of all the ways they could get one over on you. Partners can always go off in a business direction you don't believe in and that is fine but as soon as the trust is broken it is all over. It works the same with any relationship.
This was good advise at the time and I have seen it for my self many years later. It cost me 10’s of thousands of dollars learning this for myself. I have lost that trust with google and their products. I have sent few emails off to space trying to contact them. I also know how data can be mined and know the power of it because that is what I did for a living for many years.
Google spent something like 20 or 30 million for this product and it will be used to tie into their adwords. They will be able to target markets much better and sell ads for more money. Many many many people will sign up and not see the big picture and that is fine but I will not be one of them.
If I sign up for Google Alerts They know my interests because I get those interests emailed to me every day. High level of what they may have: IP / email / Interests
If I sign up for Gmail they know the topics I read and the area of work I am in.
High level of what they may have: IP (location) / email / Interests / Subjects emailed to me and keywords in the body of the email.
If I surf google they read my cookies and track as much of that as they can. High level of what they may have: IP / cookie info
If I load google tool bar they know where I go after my search.
High level of what they may have: IP / Know where I surf the web / They can update my computer anytime with a complied file I can’t read that could do anything. They monitor the websites I own and try to rank well. Same keyword search every day many times is a quick flag.
If I click on google ads they know where I was and where I was going. Now if the site I went to has java scripts following me more they very well can track me to and through another site they maybe tracking as well.
Mix my IP (location) and my email address and other info they know a Crap load about me when if is queried together. The FBI and others would kill for this kind of information when it comes to people of interest.
Ok maybe my rant is not perfect but this is all a quick look at the future of profiling. If it is not here yet it will be. The last Satellite that went up for Satellite TV in my area has become smarter than the last. When people hacked it they did not know who and where they are. Now the Sat’s can Interact with your connection over the phone confirming and know where the signal is going. Soon they will put up a Sat that will be much smarter. One that you will be able to interact with it just like they do with the internet today. Now that is when these profiling betas become the real kids on the block.
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dirty_shame
Joined: Aug 28, 2005
# Posts: 191
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Posted: 2005-Nov-22 07:23
To: mteasdal
Regarding the Google Analytics Terms Of Service, it's about the same stuff we state on all of our own Terms and Conditions pages. Sure, Web Lawyers are about the dumbest mob of drivelers on the planet right now, so everybody uses the old Harvard CYA broadstroke for their "Agreements" 'cause nobody has tested them yet.
To: lizardz
"google tracks user data for click throughs, they integrate your site's logs into that use behavior data, then they decide that your site is not in fact a very good match for a wide range of searches because users all leave your site, maybe because they found what they wanted quickly, whatever."
Exactly right. That's how you create a quality search product. If people can find (what they think is) a better site faster than yours, let them go there. But what "behavior data" are you talking about? They can't point 18-year-olds to a T-shirt site or agoraphobics to a national convention-by-cellphone. Urchin doesn't have viable profile. They could probably tell somebody what's closer to where they live geographically. So let them search locally and see if they like it. Think about this: Do you really think that the second or third "lowest price" retailers on a comparative-pricing site sell...nothing? The Urchin data just isn't that critical.
"...how can you know that they won't harm your site at some point by you allowing them to process all your site's user data?" "...they will do what most big companies will do..."
I don't make decisions about our sites based upon fear of what Google might or might not do. Google's Urchin code is voluntary. Put it on whatever pages you want. Leave it off the ones you don't. They don't require that you get branded by the local tattooo parlor on your forehead. Google is asking webmasters to volunteer their data in return for a superior tracking service. We've already got our own that is equally astute, so it doesn't make any difference. The whole point is that they are asking web creators, not surfers. Ten years of surfer stats can be completely incomprehensible whereas ten months of direct web stats can be enormously enlightening.
About this "big business" moniker: You cannot make a small business big by making a big business small. Gates isn't worried about Google and you shouldn't be either. The Web is too anonymous to be trustworthy. That's why it changes so rapidly. But it sure makes for some great discussions about what "might" happen and how horrible it could get. Like I said before, don't do the Big Brother thing if you don't want to. If you think Urchin is too overbearing, don't use it.
If you think Microsoft and Google are trying to take over the world, you are probably right. My own plan to take over the world failed some time ago, but so did everybody elses that I've ever known.
To: mteasdal last post
I don't have any idea what you said.
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mteasdal
Joined: Eons Ago
# Posts: 376
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Posted: 2005-Nov-22 08:05
"I don't have any idea what you said."
Don't worry it was nothing important.
Enjoy Urchin
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dirty_shame
Joined: Aug 28, 2005
# Posts: 191
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Posted: 2005-Nov-22 09:26
Well, I did understand what you said, kind of. I just didn't know what topic to address.
I'm not a proponent of Google or anyone else for that matter. I'm not a dyed-in-the-wool optimist either. I don't trust Google to do anything for me other than what they say they'll do nor will I mistrust them for Urchin at this point.
Your post just seemed to have a whole bunch of different issues that I can't answer all at once. I'm not here that often, but I might be able to shed some light on a few subjects.
Please don't let me discourage you from pursuing them and I look forward to your additions to the Forum.
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mteasdal
Joined: Eons Ago
# Posts: 376
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Posted: 2005-Nov-22 20:36
dirty_shame - It is all good. I have had fun looking into this new product and looking into where they could go with it. It made me think and research and that is what it is all about.
Google has their hands in many pies. Take a look at all their domains and toys they are working on...
[link]
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ozami
Joined: Nov 22, 2005
# Posts: 9
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Posted: 2005-Nov-22 22:59
Google Analytics has experienced extremely strong demand, and as a result, we have temporarily limited the number of new signups as we increase capacity. In the meantime, please submit your name and email address and we will notify you as soon as we are ready to add new accounts. Thank you for your patience.
Looks like they ain't accepting anyone else for a while.
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Logan
Joined: Aug 14, 2002
# Posts: 3749
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Posted: 2005-Nov-23 02:13
Yep, the old restrict supply google marketing approach. Google often opens the doors to something and then restricts availability ... gmail ... that earth thingy ... nothin but a marketing tactic imo.
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lizardz
Joined: Nov 12, 2004
# Posts: 1394
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Posted: 2005-Nov-23 03:57
"Gates isn't worried about Google and you shouldn't be either"
Yes he is. It's his number one concern right now, I think it finally pushed Linux out of the way. Bill is extremely worried about Google. Now, I'm not a Bill fan, but he is very good at correctly assessing what MS needs to fight to maintain its top spot. Netscape, Linux, and now google. So to keep with the logic, but correcting your flawed premise, your statement would read: bill is massively worried about google and you should be too.
Anyway, each to his own, I've seen what I'm talking about happen too much in the past to believe anything different, something about learning from past events and behaviors to predict future ones.
So far it's working pretty well. There is one slight thing though, you seem to think I'm refering to some demographic tracking, I'm not, it's raw user behavior.
Anyway, it's easy to see where google wants to be, and it's not going to be good for competition on the web. People will hook up with them thinking they can use them, but long term google is bigger than you are, and they'll do what they want. That includes doing anything to keep profits high, rising, etc. It's a powerful logic, once you enter into it, you're in it, and there's almost nothing you can do to avoid the consequences, not even a slogan like 'don't be evil' can stop it.
The last thing I do is help these guys, anytime you can see the tendency it's time to step away from linking yourself too closely to them. If the world hadn't stepped back from MS's ideas for an essentially proprietary web delivered by IIS to MSIE that's what we'd have now. And back then, the voices would be the same, oh, don't worry, be happy, don't expect the worst, they are just out to make things better for you. They are out to make things better for themselves, it's simple. As a website hack I'm out to make things better for myself and my clients.
Anyway, google will retain their aura of whatever it is people see when they look at them for a few more years I guess, after that things won't look quite as rosy.
[ Message was edited by: lizardz 11/22/2005 08:21 pm ]
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