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langardmicro
Joined: Mar 12, 2007
# Posts: 76
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Posted: 2007-Jun-23 10:27
Every time the W3C turns loose an HTML remake with new tags, webmasters around the globe jump on it to solve design and syndication problems that've been plaguing them forever.
But everybody forgets what happened the LAST time they tried to implement new tags ... Before the SEs caught up with the technology.
The IFRAMES implementation is driving SEOs bonkers. So are sites built with <OBJECT> tags. They're both sending web sites plummeting in the SE rankings because -- the SEs don't know how to deal with them, pure and simple.
The new frames are, in a lot of ways, just like the 'old' frames model. They isolate little capsules of information into segregated modules that are, for all intents and purposes, totally DISCONNECTED (at least so far as the SEs can determine).
So point one is that Bots are still as stupid as they used to be. They can't traverse (what appears to them to be) SEPARATE documents displayed on the same page. I mean, we're talking about the same robots that still scorn javascript as if it's ancient Egyptian.
Even IFRAMES developer-lovers have to develop elaborate tricks, hacks and methods to somehow compel robots to read the whole document, which isn't nearly as easy as the old 'noframes' tag.
I'm not going to wait until GoogleBot gets smarter. It seems that the entire real estate industry, for instance, is whining about losing their hard-earned organic rankings after (amazingly enough) jacking in some MLS feed or blog into an IFRAME format.
So until Google (or Matt Cutts) says they love IFRAMES and OBJECTS tags, I'm putting them on the shelf. If you want to see an example of difficult Object-Oriented SEO work (not in iframes but with similar problems in exotic javascript and ajax, dah dah) take a look at the source code on the new, outstanding site netvibes.com and tell me just exactly how you could possible optimize a site using that format?
No, I'm going to treat the bots like a red-headed browser I had three years ago.
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omegaman66
Joined: Aug 19, 2000
# Posts: 327
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Posted: 2007-Jun-23 17:27
Come on... don't hold back! Tell us what you really think of iframes!
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langardmicro
Joined: Mar 12, 2007
# Posts: 76
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Posted: 2007-Jun-23 23:23
Okay, pretend your're a bot.
You come in at the 0,0 x-y coordinate at the top of the page and start digesting. If you don't see anything suspicious like 'STRICT' in the DTD, you breeze on into the header where you're confronted by a blur of Metas, three CSS stylesheets, four javascript calls, some browser recognition stuff, maybe a script trying to shove a cookie down your throat...dah, dah.
If you don't choke, you get to continue to the actual HTML. BUT, just when you thought you got to the meat of the page, you run head-on into an IFRAME wall that perverts your whole scheme.
So, as a bot, you have two choices: You can persevere or you can say sionara, so long, adios.
As an SEO, I'm supposed to be tearing down the walls, not putting them up. So like I said, I'm benching the IFRAMES after a few ugly trys.
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g1smd
Staff
Joined: Jul 28, 2002
# Posts: 10465
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Posted: 2007-Jun-23 23:47
My rule of thumb: whatever content you can directly see in the HTML source code for that page, is what will be indexed under that URL.
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beth_lk
Staff
Joined: Jun 23, 2004
# Posts: 1308
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Posted: 2007-Jun-24 22:11
langardmicro - having viewed the site used as an example ( above ) in my limited knowledge I say "OH MY"!!!
Who would CHOSE to do that to their sites HTML???? 
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langardmicro
Joined: Mar 12, 2007
# Posts: 76
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Posted: 2007-Jun-25 07:20
g1smd: Exactly, which is why promoting the old frame-model sites was like pulling off your toenails one-by-one with a pair of fencing pliers. Iframes presents similar difficulties.
beth_lk: Yes, Netvibes is a triple-cool, highly interactive, complex, award winning piece of work. But after looking at the source code, you begin to realize that there is, effectively, NO CONTENT AT ALL on their pages. Their superior technology will make them exceedingly popular, but optimizing them would be a complete nightmare. Sites like Zillow.com too.
Don't misunderstand, I like OOP (Object Oriented Programming) and all the exciting things that you can do with it. But even the newest browser versions can't deal with SGML or even little brother XML yet. The vast majority of sites out there aren't even xhtml yet.
But if anybody is considering "upgrading" their site to newer standards -- and have any ranking at all, I'd recommend they leave Iframes out of it completely. It's like upgrading to 'Windows Millennium'. It's a slice-n-dice solution.
What with a plethora of scripts and APIs in AJAX (thanks to Google) and Ruby On Rails and Python and ... not to mention widespread CSS styling acceptance, Iframes looks like a hack, not a long-term, viable SEO solution.
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g1smd
Staff
Joined: Jul 28, 2002
# Posts: 10465
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Posted: 2007-Jun-25 12:05
I use an iframe when I want to show the user something that doesn't need to be indexed. But that is a rarity.
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langardmicro
Joined: Mar 12, 2007
# Posts: 76
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Posted: 2007-Jun-26 00:23
Perhaps that's where I fail with the concept of IFRAMES: I've never developed a site that I didn't consider ALL of the content to be part of a site's eventual optimization.
Car manufacturers, for instance, use an iframes format to update the content for their dealerships nationwide ... daily model prices, parts availability, etc. But all of that is completely outside of SEO since it's all private channel, under secure sockets and unavailable to the SEs anyway.
But other industries like real estate use iframes to plaster identical remote server MLS feeds into hundreds of their agents web sites ... and then wonder why they get penalized for duplicate, non-indexable content. Duh.
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omegaman66
Joined: Aug 19, 2000
# Posts: 327
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Posted: 2007-Jul-06 12:10
iFrames have a purpose and I put them to full use. I use iframes to display content that will be displayed on hundreds are thousands of different pages. I iframes fit the bill perfectly.
The key is the content that I display in the iframes is advertisements. The banner is on another server!!! So I use iframes and I hope that the search engines never figure them out!
Incedentally the iframe is called via javascript that I use for banner rotation so the iframe isn't there for every banner.
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blackspot
Joined: Jul 04, 2007
# Posts: 7
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Posted: 2007-Jul-07 03:06
while an iframe's content would not be spidered as if it was on the page, it probably should be - and would be in an ideal world
but since its not, webmasters must remember whats being spidered
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langardmicro
Joined: Mar 12, 2007
# Posts: 76
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Posted: 2007-Jul-10 05:12
omegaman66,
I serve content to many sites also, but I fail to see the advantage of using iframes.
In fact, I have yet to see anything that cannot be accomplished far better without them. Javascript calls to remote servers that run scripts is no biggie... That's what AdSense and several others do. We do too. Ajax will do all kinds of things too.
So, 1) since iframes is a relatively STATIC format (one that cannot be resized to accomodate the layout it's plugged into) and 2) since it presents obvious optimization problems, why would anybody use it as anything but a last resort (i.e. if they didn't know how to do anything else)?
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