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g1smd
Moderator
Joined: Jul 28, 2002
# Posts: 10182
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Posted: 08/28/2004 01:16 am
Heard of it. Never looked at it.
I tried several wysiwyg editors many years ago then moved straight to hand coding.
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tjg282
Joined: Sep 03, 2004
# Posts: 1
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Posted: 09/03/2004 06:54 am
This is a great thread for me also. Where could I find this Dreamweaver?
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philh
Joined: Sep 14, 2001
# Posts: 3050
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Posted: 09/03/2004 07:28 am
http://www.macromedia.com/software/dreamweaver/
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lizardz
Joined: Nov 12, 2004
# Posts: 1394
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Posted: 01/11/2005 06:17 pm
<< I tried several wysiwyg editors many years ago then moved straight to hand coding. >>
Same here. I like to call those type of editors WYSIWYMBPWG editors [what you see is what you may but probably won't get]. I've read that dreamweaver can be made useable by adding a clean code extension to it, but it doesn't come that way out of the box.
Totally disagree on wordpad, using ms proprietary products lead you to experience errors that you would never see with a real text editor [errors like believing you can't create an .htaccess file in windows just ribbing..]. There's big debate about which text editor is best, but really they are all good, I like editplus, crimson editor for a free one, there's a lot out there, all of them are 10 times better than wordpad or notepad, and many are free. Syntax highlighting, adjustable indentation widths, line numbering. Try debugging code without line numbering and with it, huge difference.
<<< Have you ever noticed that no one ever recommends or even mentions Netobjects >>>
LOL, that company went bankrupt about 6 months after I got a job redoing a website, the owner wanted it done in netobjects, I refused flat out, it was horrible then, I wonder who bought them up.
If you are only doing one website, dreamweaver can be OK, but avoid Frontpage with all your human will, that's a truly horrible product, probably the very worst year in and year out, repsonsible for some of the worst code nightmares.
On the other hand, I've made a decent living fixing dreamweaver massacred sites, so I guess there is a plus to using those horrible gui type editors. But hand coding is the way to go, it gives you full control over what happens. You can use things like dreamweaver to learn on I guess, but that's all you'll be doing.
All so called wysiwyg type editors however do a horrible job with CSS, that can't be done as a rule like that, has to be handcoded, same with their so called behaviors, which are just really nasty little javascript things that generally only work on certain browsers.
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greenleaves
Joined: Mar 21, 2002
# Posts: 720
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Posted: 01/12/2005 08:19 am
I find that dreamweaver is very usefull in saving you TONS of time. The trick to using dreamweaver, and keeping high quality code, is to use the split view (code on top, design layout on the bottom). You can insert tables and many objects quicky, while seing the code, and editing it.
I know that if mis-used, dreamweaver can create some nasty code, but if used properly, you can get the same html as doing it by hand, and in half the time. Try it, you won't regret it.
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lizardz
Joined: Nov 12, 2004
# Posts: 1394
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Posted: 01/12/2005 12:30 pm
It only saves you 'tons of time' if you don't know how to do real coding or programming. What really saves you 'tons of time' are things like copy and paste, site wide search and replace, dynamic construction of your website, programming of your website, using includes [about as easy as anything out there gets].
Once you learn how to do real coding, you start being able to work very very fast, and to be able to put out very high quality code. Much higher quality than any gui editor can.
And the odd thing is, if you rely on these wysiwymbpwg editors, you probably won't learn how to do much real code work, but you will think you know how to do web design/coding.
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greenleaves
Joined: Mar 21, 2002
# Posts: 720
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Posted: 01/12/2005 01:38 pm
It only saves you 'tons of time' if you don't know how to do real coding or programming.
Ok, I grant the fact that I am not a programer. And I also grant you that I am not a fast typer (45-55 words per minute). But I know how to code a page, and I find it much faster to press alt+i+t a few tabs and enter to get several lines of code...
What really saves you 'tons of time' are things like copy and paste, site wide search and replace
Couldn't agree more. But this can be done in dreamweaver, no problem.
, dynamic construction of your website, programming of your website, using includes [about as easy as anything out there gets].
These techniques can save you time, but they also oppen up a hole can of worms (that or the programers I have worked with aren't all that good). Furthermore, it is much easier to learn html then any programing language.
Once you learn how to do real coding, you start being able to work very very fast, and to be able to put out very high quality code. Much higher quality than any gui editor can.
Again, I don't know your typing speed. I take it that by coding you are refering to html "coding" as that is what this thread is about; builing a web site (traditionally done in html). Inserting things with a few keystrokes, then eding the inserted code, is faster for me then writting it all by hand. I guess that is a personal preference, and people who type faster/do more editing to the inserted code may find my way of doing things slower.
And the odd thing is, if you rely on these wysiwymbpwg editors, you probably won't learn how to do much real code work, but you will think you know how to do web design/coding.
I first learned html, before I even touched any type of wysiwyg software. And if anyone would ask me, I would tell them to take the same rute I took. Every line of code on my site has been checked by me (and double checked by W3C). So I know my code is high quality and up to standards. I guess in the end, there is no "one size fits all" solution, using a an editor or not is based on personal preferences and needs.
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lizardz
Joined: Nov 12, 2004
# Posts: 1394
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Posted: 01/12/2005 02:09 pm
I can see that you haven't figured this out by your focus on typing speed. When you make a real website, you aren't 'typing' the html for every page.
I do very little code typing, although I used to do a lot more. I use basic HTML templates for the raw page, fill in certain fields. I use html tag shortcuts, so I rarely type in much more than an odd tag or two.
Running includes can really not even be considered programming:
<?php include('navigation/topnav.htm'); ?>
pretty hard, no?
When I make a site, I make the page template, or templates if it's a complex one. I create the CSS for it. As soon as you go to CSS/P for site construction you can't use wysiwyg editors anyway, so that's not even a question. Well, you might think you can, but you can't if you want the thing to actually work cross platform and browser.
I test the template in all the browsers. then I chop it up into pieces and create include files out of those. then I pop in page content. It takes me about 5-10 minutes to create a new page, and only about 1 minute to update the entire site's navigation or whatever other include I'm using, in fact I often to this while talking to a client, and then tell them to refresh the page, that's always fun.
And all that can be done with the single line of php above. I do much more complex stuff, dynamic things, but those aren't necessary for most site builders. Your reply to me demonstrates exactly what I'm saying, if you use wysiwymbpwg editors, you aren't going to learn anything. If you hand code you will. That's because we're lazy, and don't want to type a whole page for every page.
Real text editors, real HTML, real CSS. Oh, and by the way, when you type more your typing gets better.
While you think that this is just a choice, I can see very clearly that you have not learned a great deal of things because you are using dreamweaver, I used to use dreamweaver, and still do for site management stuff, like search and replace, and a few other things, but I never use it to make pages or code. Last time I did that was in 2000, which was when I started learning how to really code. And I started learning how to do real coding and programming, oddly enough, the exact time I quit using dreamweaver. It's your choice. I used to type slow, now I type fast. Funny how that works.
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g1smd
Moderator
Joined: Jul 28, 2002
# Posts: 10182
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Posted: 01/12/2005 03:36 pm
I can see both sides of what you are saying. You are both right in what you say.
Lets not take this into a personal argument as it is almost heading that way; viz. "you haven't learnt much".
Personally I have a basic page, with all the stuff in the <head> partially filled in, and a blank body. I use that as a starting point every time. I edit tags in a text editor. I have some constructs already assembled in another file and I copy and paste those from there to my real page as I go.
Includes are great. For people that I wean off frontpage, I say that they are just like "shared borders" but you are in control and the server does all the work
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lizardz
Joined: Nov 12, 2004
# Posts: 1394
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Posted: 01/12/2005 03:51 pm
I've actually thought about trying to use dreamweaver again to do quick throw away sites, but I don't, I've also learned that every time I make a quick throw away site the client changes their mind and decides they want a real web presence, so now I just make their sites as if they were going to get really big one day, haven't made a nonscripted site in I think 3 years, except for a 1 page disposable temorary site I did for somebody.
Personally, I've always had problems with the idea that you can learn by not doing. I always heard it was the opposite, learn by doing, that really does seem to work, I tend to try to push everyone who actually has an interest in really working with the web to get into the real thing as soon as they can, the sooner you do, the sooner you start learning the real thing.
A lot of people will ignore this advice, which is fine, I'll never be competing with those people for clients in the future. I'm not actually arguing with this person, anybody who has used these products this long isn't going to suddenly feel the need to start handcoding, it's something that attracts you if you have the inclination to have excellent control over your sites, the whole hacker thing.
Many people don't have this interest, especially so called web designers. Which is fine, if everybody was good at this stuff it would be impossible to get work doing it.
I'm more interested in people who might be starting out, come across a thread like this, and aren't even aware of what handcoding is, someone like me when I started that is, although I started with notepad too, took a brief, very brief detour to frontpage, took another detour to dreamweaver, until their templating system failed completely after the 2nd or 3rd modification to it I made, then I had to go in an redo it all anyway by hand, that's why I stopped using dreamweaver.
I do think dreamweaver has certain applications, as long as you accept long term code degradation:
an organization where many people post to a single site [although a cms is probably a much better choice today]
an individual who just wants to run their own little site and isn't interested in learning web stuff.
However, for anyone who feels the itch, do yourself a big favor, learn how to hand code. Learn some programming, it pays off, and you have to type your programming no matter what, it's ok.
[ Message was edited by: lizardz 01/12/2005 04:02 pm ]
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greenleaves
Joined: Mar 21, 2002
# Posts: 720
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Posted: 01/13/2005 09:39 am
Running includes can really not even be considered programming:
<?php include('navigation/topnav.htm'); ?>
pretty hard, no?
And what difference is there between that and Dreamweaver libraries? BTW, being pretentious, with comments like; "pretty hard, no?" is un-necessary. I can see you know your stuff, when it comes to coding, I am open to exchanging ideas, and learning, but in a civil, non-degrading manner .
When I make a site, I make the page template, or templates if it's a complex one. I create the CSS for it.
So? Doesn’t everyone? Whether with a WYSIWYG or by hand, this seems standard.
As soon as you go to CSS/P for site construction you can't use wysiwyg editors anyway, so that's not even a question. Well, you might think you can, but you can't if you want the thing to actually work cross platform and browser.
Again, your letting your hostility bring you off topic. I never said I create my CSS with a wysiwyg. I actually do, do that part by hand. Again, I remind you, having an attitude is not going to make you look good.
I test the template in all the browsers. then I chop it up into pieces and create include files out of those. then I pop in page content. It takes me about 5-10 minutes to create a new page, and only about 1 minute to update the entire site's navigation or whatever other include I'm using, in fact I often to this while talking to a client, and then tell them to refresh the page, that's always fun.
This can all be done, in Dreamweaver through templates and libraries. And testing across browsers is a basic.
Your reply to me demonstrates exactly what I'm saying, if you use wysiwymbpwg editors, you aren't going to learn anything. If you hand code you will.
There is a lot more to the web then coding and html editing software. I am constantly learning. But I don't focus on coding (as I am neither a programmer nor a designer). I do SEM for a living. So, when I have time to learn, I mostly research subjects related to SEO and advertising possibilities. What I know about html/site design is complementary to my line of work. If I am going to be in charge of the creation of a big budget site, I look for a professional, and polite, designer. I really only use my html knowledge to build informative sites, for spider food. There are so many things you can learn, that it is up to you to decide what you would like to focus on.
That's because we're lazy,
You don’t know me, but you call me lazy… that says a lot more about you then it does about me.
and don't want to type a whole page for every page.
Real text editors, real HTML, real CSS. Oh, and by the way, when you type more your typing gets better.
As apposed to fake editors, fake html and fake CSS? And thanks for the tid-bit, but I do not earn my pay checks by just typing.
While you think that this is just a choice, I can see very clearly that you have not learned a great deal of things because you are using dreamweaver,
The fact that you classify my work and my knowledge, without even knowing it, as fake/weak, proves that you have something against me that is not based on facts, but on emotions. And determining that I have a learning impediment due to the fact that I use Dreamweaver, again, says a lot more about you, then it does about me .
Personally, I've always had problems with the idea that you can learn by not doing. I always heard it was the opposite, learn by doing, that really does seem to work, I tend to try to push everyone who actually has an interest in really working with the web to get into the real thing as soon as they can, the sooner you do, the sooner you start learning the real thing.
Your attitude makes it very difficult to discuss things with you. Working on Dreamweaver, is doing. You may not believe that it is, and you may believe that a site made using Dreamweaver is a “non-real” site, but that is your belief. I respect your opinion; I would appreciate it if you respected mine. With all the work I have done on the web, I have learned a few things, amongst them:
1- There is more then one way to skin a cat
2- Arrogance will get you nowhere.
A lot of people will ignore this advice, which is fine, I'll never be competing with those people for clients in the future.
I know I won’t be competing with you; I do SEM, not design.
I'm not actually arguing with this person, anybody who has used these products this long isn't going to suddenly feel the need to start handcoding, it's something that attracts you if you have the inclination to have excellent control over your sites, the whole hacker thing.
Ok, I’ll bite, what does hand coding html (that is what the thread is about) and hacking have to do with each other .
Many people don't have this interest, especially so called web designers. Which is fine, if everybody was good at this stuff it would be impossible to get work doing it.
Implying that someone who doesn’t do things your way is “bad”, says a lot more about you, then about the person who doesn’t do things your way.
I'm more interested in people who might be starting out, come across a thread like this, and aren't even aware of what handcoding is, someone like me when I started that is
Yes, but people should also understand that there are other options available beyond hand coding. And these options are not necessarily “fake” “bad” or “unprofessional” as you have said and insinuated.
although I started with notepad too, took a brief, very brief detour to frontpage, took another detour to dreamweaver, until their templating system failed completely after the 2nd or 3rd modification to it I made, then I had to go in an redo it all anyway by hand, that's why I stopped using dreamweaver.
Ah, we get down to the real issue here. You are bitter because you had a bad experience with Dreamweaver. I bet you hardly even got to know the program.
I do think dreamweaver has certain applications, as long as you accept long term code degradation:
an organization where many people post to a single site [although a cms is probably a much better choice today]
an individual who just wants to run their own little site and isn't interested in learning web stuff.
I truly believe, and many people I know would agree with me, that there are other applications
However, for anyone who feels the itch, do yourself a big favor, learn how to hand code. Learn some programming, it pays off, and you have to type your programming no matter what, it's ok.
That is your opinion. If you would ask me, I would prefer to start leaning SEO and other forms of online marketing. Then get a programmer to help you out on the things you can’t do. There are so many things you can learn related to cyber business, that it is really a personal decision what you would like to learn. To imply that learning to program is the thing to do is IMHO, silly.
I agree that if I learned programming I would benefit from it. But I believe I could benefit more by learning other aspects of e-business.
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lizardz
Joined: Nov 12, 2004
# Posts: 1394
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Posted: 01/13/2005 01:12 pm
<< You don’t know me, but you call me lazy >>
I was talking about me, not you. Why would you assume when I use the word we I'm talking about you? I'm talking about people into high end coding. Hacker types that is.
Good programmers are lazy, it's one of their trademarks. If you would read what I wrote instead of assuming it's a personal attack on you you'd see that. Laziness is a compliment, good hacks come out of laziness, wanting to save oneself work. In case you still have trouble with this: I am lazy, I look for shortcuts, I try to type as little as possible. I look for ways to make everything easier and easier. OK? Got it? I try to learn more and more programming because the more I learn, the better control I have over my sites, and the less tied I am to proprietary systems that are not reliable. Got it?
You really have to believe me, I don't care what tool you use for your work. If you're into this stuff at a core level you'd understand what I'm talking about, you're not so you don't, stop getting so upset about something that doesn't matter, being into something other than coding is fine, there's nothing wrong with that.
this isn't directed at you, if you'd read the posting, I'm saying explicitly I'm directing my response to others who might have this coding itch, but who aren't quite aware of what that means, and I say explicitly I know you don't. To me it almost looks like you wished you did but don't but still wish you did. Why bother, just do what you like to do and be happy about it. If you tell me I'm a bad designer I'm not going to disagree, I am a bad designer.
You're getting sort of defensive here wouldn't you say? Other people are going to read this thread, did it occur to you that maybe those are the people I'm directing my words to? People who may not know that wysiwyg editors are not good tools for CSS and CSS/P?
Since you admit what was obvious, that you aren't a coder, but are focusing on other areas, almost nothing I'm saying is directed to you. You can assume it is, but it's not.
[ Message was edited by: lizardz 01/13/2005 01:24 pm ]
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greenleaves
Joined: Mar 21, 2002
# Posts: 720
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Posted: 01/13/2005 01:46 pm
Ok, sorry lizardz, I guess I read your post in the wrong way. I have been in a defensive mode too long right now, sorry if that came out on you.
Good advice for people who would like to focus on coding.
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lizardz
Joined: Nov 12, 2004
# Posts: 1394
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Posted: 01/13/2005 02:31 pm
And not only that, but I'll bet you're much better than me at the areas you are focusing on. At least I'd hope so. Sometimes I have bad days and it comes out in posts, once in a while I have a really bad day and have to blow up a user identity, though that hasn't happened in a while.
I think one problem is that when somebody asks 'what is the 'best' way to do something, that's going to invite debate, since most people probably think their way is the best way. And it often is, it's the best way for them. Personally, I really like clean pure code, always have, so doing it by hand is the best way. Others like other things, so their way is the best way for that.
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hamids68
Joined: Nov 29, 2004
# Posts: 8
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Posted: 02/11/2005 03:25 pm
hello
how about using a CMS. .. means content managing system..
which one is better? hiring a professional web designer or using A good CMS?
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excell
Moderator
Joined: Mar 19, 2001
# Posts: 14502
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Posted: 02/11/2005 04:00 pm
hi hamids - I would invest in a good designer that builds search engine friendly websites.
There are many CMSs out there and the vast majority, while being easy to use, are not search engine friendly by a long shot.
Our design & marketing firm has about 80% of our new clients coming in because they have either built something themselves or had it built for them and it hasn't worked for them. In most case the websites have to be totally re-built from scratch. So - choose a designer very carefully - ring clients and ask questions.
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g1smd
Moderator
Joined: Jul 28, 2002
# Posts: 10182
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Posted: 02/11/2005 04:29 pm
A CMS constrains what you do.
They are good for a large company to use where the IT section and web developers set the standards for page coding, and then set the page design in a template. The CMS uses the fixed template and the user's content to build the page. The IT people can then let the marketing people write the content safe in the knowledge they can't b0rk the page design, navigation, and validation. It is really important to use a CMS that lets you set individual page titles and meta descriptions for each page.
For a small user, most CMS out these are too limiting, and not SE friendly. Once you learn more about coding, code optimisation, and content optimisation you'll soon see the limitations. By then you'll already have invested a lot of time in developing your content. If you decide to change systems, hopefully there will be an easy way to export your data from the old one to the new one. If not, then that is a lot of time wasted.
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hamids68
Joined: Nov 29, 2004
# Posts: 8
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Posted: 02/11/2005 05:38 pm
thanks excell and g1smd
first of all let me to apologize for my english that is not fluently. I am going to create one medical site something as great as webmd ,probabaly you have heard about it. but not in english. it will have more than 400 pages and many remarkable services.your good clarifications are helping me . I have though that there are many good CMS`s that we can do any thing whitout any limitations...but now i found it is not true. my best way also to improve my site is using SEO rules.any way thank you all i am thinking about good designer and programer.
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excell
Moderator
Joined: Mar 19, 2001
# Posts: 14502
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Posted: 02/12/2005 05:16 am
many remarkable services
yes - so you firstly should want those services to be found - no matter how good something looks, if nobody can find it to look at it is about useless good luck!
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dyrah
Joined: Mar 17, 2005
# Posts: 11
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Posted: 03/17/2005 08:15 am
That's also a good idea. To hire a professional web designer. But at some point, that may also be costly and time consuming, if you don't know one.
I'm am not also an expert when it comes to web designs, but i know Microsoft Frontpage and Dreamweaver are good picks.Microsoft Frontpage is used for simple websites.It is easier and quicker to learn due to its Office-like menus. On the other hand, Dreamweaver is widely used because of its stability and incredible capacity for advanced users. One of the best features of this is the possibility of changing between layers and tables.
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