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St0n3y Joined: May 01, 2002
# Posts: 1620
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Posted: 07/22/2004 09:59 am
No body said war does not make money, but the fact that it does in no way implies that we went to war for money. The reasons for going to war were clear and the congress and Senate and many other nations agreed with those reasons. |
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greenleaves Joined: Mar 21, 2002
# Posts: 720
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Posted: 07/23/2004 09:18 am
We just see things differently. Forcing military operations on over 80 countries since the foundation of the USA to me is imperialism. To you it’s liberation. The Spanish, French, Portuguese and English also thought that when they “liberated the Americas”. Here is a little of what I mean: PHILIPPINES/l898-1910 (-?)/Naval, troops/Seized from Spain, U.S. troops kill 600,000 Filipinos. CUBA/l898-1902 (-?)/Naval, troops/Seized from Spain, U.S. still illegally holds Navy base there over Cuban objections. PANAMA/1901-03 (-?)/Naval, troops/Broke off from Colombia in a U.S. organized 'rebellion', U.S. annexes Canal Zone. HONDURAS/l903/Troops/U.S. Marines intervene in revolution. DOMINICAN REP./1903-04/Troops/U.S. business interests protected in Revolution. KOREA/1904-05/Troops/U.S. Marines land in Russo-Japanese War. CUBA/1906-09/Troops/U.S. Marines land in democratic election. NICARAGUA/1907/Troops/"Dollar Diplomacy" protectorate (psuedo- colony) set up. HONDURAS/l907/Troops/U.S. Marines land during war with Nicaragua. PANAMA/l908/Troops/U.S. Marines intervene in election contest. NICARAGUA/l9l0/Troops/U.S. Marines land in Bluefields and Corinto. HONDURAS/1911/Troops/U.S. business interests protected in civil war. CUBA/1912/Troops/U.S. business interests protected in Havana. PANAMA/l9l2/Troops/U.S. Marines land during heated election. HONDURAS/l9l2/Troops/Marines protect U.S. economic interests. NICARAGUA/1912-33/Troops, bombing/20-year occupation, fought guerrillas. MEXICO/l9l3/Naval/Americans evacuated during revolution. DOMINICAN REPUBLIC/1914/Naval/Fight with rebels over Santo Domingo. MEXICO/1914-18/Naval, troops/Series of interventions against Mexican nationalists. HAITI/1914-34/Troops, bombing/19-year occupation after revolts. DOMINICAN REPUBLIC/1916-24/Troops/8-year U.S. Marine occupation. CUBA/1917-33/Troops/Military occupation, U.S. declares Cuba an economic protectorate (psuedo-colony). USSR/1918-22/Naval, troops/Five landings to fight Bolsheviks in effort to overthrow the fledgling socialist government. PANAMA/1918-20/Troops/"Police duty" during unrest after elections. HONDURAS/l9l9/Troops/U.S. Marines land during election campaign. GUATEMALA/1920/Troops/2-week intervention against unionists. TURKEY/1922/Troops/U.S. fought nationalists in Smyrna. CHINA/1922-27/Naval, troops/Deployment during nationalist revolt. HONDURAS/1924-25/Troops/Landed twice during election strife. PANAMA/1925/Troops/U.S. Marines suppress general strike. CHINA/l928-34/Troops/U.S. Marines stationed throughout the country. EL SALVADOR/l932/Naval/Warships sent during Marti revolt. KOREA/l951-53(-?)/Troops, naval, bombing, nuclear threats/U.S.& South Korea fight China & North Korea to stalemate; A-bomb threat in l950, and against China in l953. China accuses U.S. of biological warfare. Still have bases. IRAN/l953/Covert/CIA overthrows democratically elected socialist premier, installs Shah. GUATEMALA/l954/Command operation, bombing, nuclear threat/CIA directs exile invasion after new gov't nationalizes U.S. companies' lands; bombers based in Nicaragua. LEBANON/l958/Troops, naval/U.S. Marine occupation against rebels. PANAMA/1958/Troops/Flag protests erupt into confrontation. VIETNAM/l960-75/Troops, naval, bombing, nuclear threats/Fought South Vietnamese revolt & North Vietnam during the Vietnamese civil war; over two million Vietnamese casualties in longest U.S. war; atomic bomb threats in l968 and l969. LAOS/1961/Covert/Military buildup during guerrilla war. CUBA/l961/Covert/CIA-directed exile invasion fails. PANAMA/l964/Troops/Panamanians shot for urging canal's return. INDONESIA/l965/Covert/One million-plus killed in CIA-assisted army coup. CIA provides assassination lists to military, plus weapons. DOMINICAN REPUBLIC/1965-66/Troops, bombing/U.S. Marines land during election campaign. GUATEMALA/l966-67/Covert/Green Berets intervene against rebels. CAMBODIA/l969-75/Bombing, troops, naval/Up to 2 million killed in decade during/after U.S. invasion of Cambodia and bombing, starvation, and political chaos. OMAN/l970/Covert/U.S. directs Iranian marine invasion to intervene in Oman civil war. LAOS/l971-73/Command operation, bombing/U.S. directs South Vietnamese invasion; "carpet-bombs" countryside. CHILE/1973/Covert/CIA funds and backs coup ousts democratically-elected Marxist president and installs brutal military dictatorship. CAMBODIA/l975/Troops, bombing/Intervenes to seize captured ship, 28 die in copter crash. IRAN/l980/Troops, nuclear threat, aborted bombing/Raid to rescue Embassy hostages; 8 troops die in copter-plane crash. Soviets warned not to get involved in revolution. LIBYA/l981/Naval jets/Two Libyan jets shot down in maneuvers. EL SALVADOR/l981-?/Covert/U.S. mercenaries, military advisors, overflights aid anti-rebel war. NICARAGUA/l981-90/Covert, naval/CIA funds, trains, equips and directs exile (Contra) invasions, plants harbor mines against revolution. HONDURAS/l982-?/Troops/Maneuvers, help build bases near borders with Nicaragua. LEBANON/l982-84/Naval, bombing, troops/Marines expel PLO and back Christian Phalangists, Navy bombs and shells Muslim positions. GRENADA/l983-84/Troops, bombing/Invasion four years after socialist revolution. U.S. installs puppet government. LIBYA/l986/Bombing, naval/Air strikes try to topple nationalist gov't. BOLIVIA/1987/Troops/Coast Guard and Army assists raids on cocaine region. IRAN/l987-88/Naval, bombing/US intervenes on side of Iraq in Gulf War. LIBYA/1989/Naval jets/Two Libyan jets shot down. PANAMA/1989-?/Troops, bombing/Nationalist government ousted by invasion. U.S. installs puppet government and refuses to hold new elections. LIBERIA/1990-?/Troops/Foreigners evacuated during civil war; troops protect CIA communications/listening post. SAUDI ARABIA/1990-?/Troops, jets/Iraq countered after invading Kuwait. Forces also in Oman, Qatar, Bahrain, UAE, Israel. IRAQ/1990-?/Naval, bombing, troops/Blockade of Iraqi and Jordanian ports; large-scale destruction of Iraqi military. KUWAIT/1991-?/Naval, bombing, troops/Attacks on Iraqi military; effort to return royal family to throne. I have never seen the movie that is at mention at this moment. So yes, what I am saying does not come from, or was affected by whoever’s movie you all are talking about. This has been a topic of interest of mine for years. Giving foreign aid has also been a way for the USA to manipulate many governments. The USA gives away billions in both loans, and grants to other countries, many of these ARE conditioned. That is a known fact. Also, I will remind you again that there is a huge list (larger than the one I posted) of countries that have had US military intervention. If you think that all this military and economical mussel has been shown for “general good” I think you should consider things a little more closely. But then again, these facts will probability be viewed thought the mentality of: we are Americans and we do things to make the world better (kind of like superman) with no personal benefit; we are cultured and civilized and we are going to bring civilization to the rest of the world (through military and economical means). That, IMO, is the mentality every Imperialist force has had. And don’t worry, you wouldn’t be the first to call me crazy. That just makes me feel more right. Yellowwing, I truly believe reality is top secret. Reality is an illusion. Everybody views life through their own looking glass and compare what they see to come to a common agreement of reality. What we know is what our eyes, nose, mouth, ears and touch pick up and then that information gets twisted in a extremely complex set of magnetic fields know as our brain. If you believe that is reality, fine. But, IMHO, this is not reality. I believe in god, and I believe he MAY know reality. And sometime, I doubt he grasps reality either (but that is just my absence of faith speaking)  .
Anyway, in conclusion, one thing I love about the US, is that you can hate me for my opinion. Or you can accept me as a person with good things to him/her, not so good things, like my political opinion and leave anger a side (which is what I am going to do, if I disagree with someone). Or you can call me a crack pot (which I am rarely forced to do with others). Or you can like me (again rare). But whatever your reaction is going to be (I predict defensive), I still keep on doing my thing and you will keep on doing yours. |
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yellowwing Moderator
Joined: May 21, 2002
# Posts: 2524
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Posted: 07/23/2004 10:40 am
I am a US Marine Veteran, serving from 1983-89. I am very proud I was part of the team that brought down our long time nemesis, the USSR. One of the main agendas of the USA is to project power. In many cases, like South America, I am not so proud. The world is getting smaller. Who will lead, and will they lead by wisdom? This movie addresses this. It is one artist's opinion. He has brought the topic out in the open, and everyone is talking about it. This is a good thing for a democracy. Apathy is a cancer for democracy. |
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St0n3y Joined: May 01, 2002
# Posts: 1620
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Posted: 07/23/2004 11:23 am
intersting points.
Why shouldn't our tax dollars be conditioned? I saw on the news the other day that Palestinian organizations receiving U.S. money were refusing to sign an anti-terrist plege, meaning they won't allow moneys to be spent on terrorist activities. REFUSING to sign. I'm tired of countries that want our money but then hate us for "interfering" and when they don't get enough money they hate us for not "helping". lets just keep our money (and our military bases) at home and let the american-hating countries defend themselves against thier own agressors. Yes, I know, there are a thousand reasons why that is not realistic, but a man can dream, can't he? |
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yellowwing Moderator
Joined: May 21, 2002
# Posts: 2524
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Posted: 07/23/2004 12:53 pm
Keeping our money and troops at home is NOT projecting power! |
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Curt Joined: Eons Ago
# Posts: 3671
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Posted: 07/24/2004 02:03 pm
There's nothing wrong with putting conditions on loans/grants as long as it doesn't serve to enrich the already filthy rich who would like to manipulate the poor folk in other countries to control them and manage them for the rich people's benefit and not for those poor folks' benefit. |
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greenleaves Joined: Mar 21, 2002
# Posts: 720
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Posted: 07/24/2004 02:40 pm
I am not discussing that. I did not mention whether that is good or bad . I only brought this up because It is an answer. I actually agree that the USA as a country should keep our money and military bases at home. But that is only one American (makes two now) vote(s). I believe that the USA has SO outrageously overpowered other nations, including militarily and economically, that expansion as far as the military goes, is totally not necessary. The USA spends more on military and foreign aid than all the rest of the countries combined. A good chunk of the several trillion dollar debt of the American people and its government is thanks to this. I see it as an abuse of power that the USA has used both its military and economical force so many times on so many countries (and not always for pink, good guy reasons). As an American citizen myself this is an outrage, and a taboo issue (to doubt the government) among fellow citizens.
Guess that makes two of us who are surprised. I wouldn't call my thoughts or your thoughts "outrageous"; I understand where each of us are coming from. We all have our blind sides. And I know I probably will loose the respect of some of you in these forums, but if by giving my opinion I can get just a few people to just consider rationally what I am saying, that is all I need. Plus these political theories are unrelated to what we are all here for; virtual marketing. |
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philh Joined: Sep 14, 2001
# Posts: 3050
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Posted: 08/14/2004 11:41 am
Well, I just got back from a week's holiday in London and finally got to see it. My opinion, for what it's worth, is that it is a good documentary that provides some insight into the arrogant world of the American (and Saudi) "have mores". Although Michael Moore does push his luck a little at times, I think the evidence of a world super-power led by a bunch of greedy, scheming elite that cares little for human life, is overwhelming. Why the American right is even slightly worried about it puzzles me though, Moore is like a bicycle brake to Bush's steamroller. I certainly don't think it is powerful enough to bring down the President. However, as the target of this documentary wields the real power, I worry that Moore may only have shown us the tip of a monstrous iceberg. |
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greenleaves Joined: Mar 21, 2002
# Posts: 720
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Posted: 08/16/2004 07:36 am
I don't think his movie is going to change anything. The US oil reserves are going to be dry by the year 2015. That is not a joke, its fact. So basically, whoever wins is going to have to make war with some middle easter oil rich country. Atleast that is my prediction. |
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St0n3y Joined: May 01, 2002
# Posts: 1620
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Posted: 08/16/2004 12:43 pm
Today Bush announced that we are withdrawing 70,000 troups from Europe and Asia. Guess who's complaining about that? John Kerry's surrogates. |
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philh Joined: Sep 14, 2001
# Posts: 3050
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Posted: 08/16/2004 01:52 pm
This discussion is about a film, not about politics. If you guys want to start a thread about American Presidential elections, go ahead - just don't do it here. |
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greenleaves Joined: Mar 21, 2002
# Posts: 720
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Posted: 08/16/2004 03:00 pm
Even though I haven't seen the movie, yet, I sence (from the conversation) that it is a political film. Discussing whether the political theme of the movie is right, is on theme. Let me see: the movie is about bush, the presidential election has bush as a candidate. Am I missing something? I mean, you are right, if I was planing on beating this dead horse any longer, I should make a new thread. So you are sort of right, but common philh, don't be such a grump 
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philh Joined: Sep 14, 2001
# Posts: 3050
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Posted: 08/16/2004 11:13 pm
greenleaves - sorry if I came over a little harsh, it's just that finally having got to see the film, I was hoping the thread would get back on topic - I was just a little frustrated |
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T. J. Daniels Joined: Aug 19, 2000
# Posts: 183
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Posted: 08/17/2004 12:26 am
"MY THOUGHTS ON POLITICS" In politics everyone carries a sign saying hurray for our side. It wasn't our fault it was the other guys. Don't believe my opponent... He lies. Copyright © 2004 T. J. Daniels |
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greenleaves Joined: Mar 21, 2002
# Posts: 720
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Posted: 08/17/2004 07:40 am
Ahh philh, don't worry, I'll still love you I too am sorry if I was harsh. |
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St0n3y Joined: May 01, 2002
# Posts: 1620
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Posted: 08/18/2004 12:31 pm
the movie and politics are inseparable discussions. |
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Curt Joined: Eons Ago
# Posts: 3671
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Posted: 02/19/2007 12:40 am
Revisited: I just saw the movie Fahrenhype 9/11 also interesting. Both movies, Fahrenheit and Fahrenhype have a ring of truth, but after having 2 years go by and gathering 2 years worth of history, learning, and observation along the way, I've concluded that both movies have some truth and both have deception built into them. Moore capitalizes on all the negativity (real and imagined) and this latest movie capitalizes on all the positiveness (real and imagined). I'd like to disect both movies and comment on both, but only if time permits. I still feel the Iraq war had to do with oil to some degree, but not the way most people think of the oil issue. Someone is getting rich from the oil, but it's not the average American, nor any average person around the world. The general American is caught in the middle of this conflict. There is a longer range goal of liberating the Iraqi oil and the goal is set by some unnamed wealthy people who have covered their tracks well enough to remain a mystery. Iran is next (probably). Some elite individuals want to liberate all the oil over seas, then use it all up, then go on to tap the vast reserves in the midwest of USA and make a killing off of that for the next 50+ years. Why do you think we are continuing to be dependent so much on oil? Because these individuals are going to continue to make billions and perhaps trillions and who do you think is going to take the blame. America. The fault is not America, France, or Even Russia, the fault lies with these elite few who are in control. They manipulate situations for war so they can profit. And what better way to divert blame from themselves than to put the blame on a mass of people called the Americans. Perhaps even Bush is a pawn not seeing the whole picture (or perhaps he is their man in place). There is so much stuff that we are not told about. It's pretty scary that just a few elite are wielding power through the use of money manipulation and power manipulation and misdirection to hide their tracks. To them people's lives are a game and they care not very much who wins as long as they maintain power. If America helps them maintain power, they will ensure that America stays on top. Side point: On the Science channel, a few air force people are finally admitting just a little that we have super fast military aircraft that can fly at 8,000+ mph using pulse detonation engines with the Aurora aircraft (at least they are hinting at it). My friend says the aircraft can actually fly up to speeds of 12,000 mph. They are also admitting a little that we have used flying saucer aircraft back in the 70's and 80's, but yet encouraged people to believe in aliens with UFO's to cover their tracks (military misdirection—someone's making money on those projects). That is just the tip of the iceberg of what is hidden from us. There are all kinds of goodies (inventions) that are kept from us that would make us not dependent on oil, but “someone” would lose and they can't have that. This Iraqi war is just a diversion to keep the general public involved in something so that we don't think about the real issues at play. |
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SportsGuy Moderator
Joined: Aug 30, 2002
# Posts: 3550
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Posted: 02/19/2007 05:14 am
Curt, my man, we need an award: Best Revival of an Old Thread You'd be a shoe-in! Now, I'll have to see this new movie - I find MM's stuff fascinating because, frankly, as a Canadian, I'm amazed at some of the stuff the American public misses - things their own government does - worse, things the government tries to get away with, and in some cases succeeds - sad that a government even tries this crap... I'm sure it's the same here in Canada, and we don't see it all, either - and I'm not poking fun or knocking Americans (I know a few, they're good folks. )
I think maybe the saddest commentary is that we don't have any real documentary-worthy events/things going on here in Canada - we kinda blow that way - just sittin' up here, shivering, drinking good beer and watching TV...
Now, as to the super-fast aircraft the saucer stuff - I'm all up on that gear! Love tech like that. I was thinking yesterday what tech will be like in about 2020 - I mean, I think in some ways we'll see things far advanced from where we are today. In other areas, for various reasons, it'll be much the same as today. The only real question I have is this: Where's my personal commuter plane? Wasn't that promised to be here by now...? LOL ...and if unreviewed ever reads this - please tell me that small island off Nova Scotia isn't Cape Breton my man. If it is, we need to talk. |
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Curt Joined: Eons Ago
# Posts: 3671
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Posted: 02/19/2007 10:58 am
SportsGuy making me giggle teehee
There are tons of issues that North Americans (yes all of North America), Europeans, Asians, and Aussie's don't address. And it's not the fault of any one country of people. The masses are kept busy thinking about other stuff = misdirection. TV is the biggest culprit, not the educational type TV, but the flash wiz bang type and that includes sadly to a large degree these news media sources too. Sure a lot of what the news stations say is true, but much of the featured stuff is still designed to take our minds off of the “not often” thought about important questions, serious questions we are not asking. I must admit that I get caught up in it too. A person can find it hard to focus on the serious hidden problems, problems that should be apparent, but we are too busy thinking about other stuff. We only see part of the picture because so much is hidden from view or we just don't ask ourselves the right questions to actually uncover these hidden things. Technology in it's pure form should make life dirt cheap and easy to afford for everyone, but it hasn't. Most of the world is in deep poverty and suppressed. The super wealthy control everything important to their agendas while keeping the rest of us inline for their own benefits and game playing. The military is basically another political tool as well as the governments are. Why do you think they keep so much of the stuff secret? If it were divulged, we'd be upset that they were spending “our” tax dollars the way they do. Then the high ranking government figures, not the government in general, have the audacity to say that the stuff they are working on is none of our business. None of my business?? My tax dollars I'm paying into the government is paying for those covert super aircraft and the other technologies that might benefit mankind in general, but which the secret government (CIA, NSA, black-ops, etc.) is keeping to themselves while the rest of the world suffers all in the name of control and keeping power away from the masses. So here we are paying taxes, paying our governments to work for us (all the different governments work for us--they are our employees, not the other way around) and they say we can't walk into area 51 or some other place on this planet and check up on some of the latest beneficial technology that you and I helped to pay for. They (black-ops, skunk works) say N.O.Y.F.B. on their insignia patches ([Google Search]). The officers will sometimes point to it if you ask about the secret stuff that the top secret organizations are working on. So here we are, trusting strangers with our money to do whatever they please without our input and on top of that we don't get to benefit by it either. And guess who's behind it? These super wealthy or powerful few individuals. National Security? hmmm, I wonder if that is all that they are concerned with. That can't possibly be the only reason they want to keep beneficial technology away from their own people who fund these things. Would you hire someone to hire someone to hire someone to build your house and not be able to have a say so in how it's built and then charge you whatever they want without question? Well... that's our governments and they are run by a few powerful and/or wealthy powerful individuals. The powerful people are not just Americans, they are the elite French, the elite Germans, the elite spaniards, the elite British, the elite Chinese, etc. It's not really our governments making these decisions, it's these few people who have amassed power to control stuff and to use misdirection to fool us and keep us occupied in serious other issues while still keeping the masses in the dark. If people really knew what was at stake, ALL of the masses would be mad at these few individuals. It's always been that way and sadly most people ignor or refuse to acknowledge or make up excuses for these few super powerful people as to why they do what they do and somehow justify their status in life. Those people are nothing more than humans like you and me and yet they act like gods over us. I do believe though that some of the masses are starting to get it, maybe. I wonder how long this crap can keep going on before the masses are tired of obeying these rulers, these super wealthy, and the super powerful. Remember, it doesn't always mean that a person needs tons of money to have tons of power. Sometimes it's about the person's position in the world (case in point: 5 star generals of military). At any rate who's telling the truth? These movies are another source of misdirection. Analyse them and then think clearly about the big hidden issues. Who stands to really win big by this war? Not the general public that much, not the general American (or other foreign) government employee, but these few “super people” (just a label if you will). Keep the masses pacified, giving them just enough to survive on and also keeping them entertained. We are being entertained and the general public loves it. And the general public is kept busy, but making little back in wages. Many industries are designed that way or they just happen along that way, but it doesn't matter how they got that way as long as it benefits the few and they can be amused with our lives. Funny thing is, most of the upper class people are caught up in the fervor as well making their money not even realizing that they too are pawns.
The chilling reality is that we already have it and the masses don't know about it. It's kept in the realm of sci-fi so that we think it's just a fantasy. We say, it's not real because it's just Star Trek. I probably have seen documents from my friend that I should not have seen. My friend, it is scary and exciting at the same time--wish you could have seen the huge binder of black-ops aircraft that I saw including the faster than light-speed anti-gravity nuclear powered space craft technology (hint, think IONIC BREEZE yeah pretty far out, but not impossible). Einstein was wrong about light speed and it's not the first time he was wrong. The nuclear bomb wasn't suppose to be possible either according to what Einstein originally figured, but you know what happened with that idea. |
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