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mrnas Joined: Jun 28, 2004
# Posts: 2
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Posted: 06/28/2004 02:46 pm
I've noticed something wierd with Yahoo and was wondering if this happens to other people as well- when i send out email promotions to my seeds list, they land in a Yahoo inbox without any complications (my seed list is about 35). When i send out the final version to my opt-in customers, however, the email lands in a Bulk Mail folder. The copy is the exact same, only the volume has changed. Is there any way to avoid my valid messages being sent to the trash can? |
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billy_nick Joined: Jun 22, 2004
# Posts: 5
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Posted: 07/01/2004 12:45 pm
signup with (url removed) and your prob is solved |
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billyaspen Joined: Sep 21, 2004
# Posts: 8
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Posted: 09/21/2004 01:13 am
(comment removed) Beware - They will not let you VIEW or EXPORT any of your email lists, therefore exploiting their customers into using them indefinitely or risk losing their mailing lists! I emailed their support staff to ask to view my lists and they replied "I don't know why you would need to see the email addresses of your subscribers..." Beware. Billy Johnston |
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john_glube Joined: Oct 09, 2004
# Posts: 29
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Posted: 10/10/2004 08:13 pm
To my understanding Yahoo! has volume control filters at the gateway server level. The result, if an IP address sends more than a certain number of messages per hour to Yahoo!, once the threshold is reached, the message is tagged as bulk and sent to the recipients' bulk mail folder. There are a number of approaches: * Have Yahoo! white list the IP address of the mail server used to send email at their gateway server level. This may be a problem if the emailer uses a shared mail server. * Work with an accreditation service to arrange to have the domain and IP address white listed at Yahoo!'s gateway server level. * Use a third party service provider which is white listed with Yahoo! to do your mailings for you. * Of course, you will want individual recipient's to white list your 'from' mailing address. Changing the subject slightly and responding to the issue raised about BigHip. I happen to use BigHip for one of my lists. BigHip will allow its customers to export "their" list on moving to a new provider. One reason for exercising control has to do with the subscriber's privacy. The service provider is the mailer, which collects and processes personal data. The name and email address of an individual is personal information covered for example under California's privacy laws. The service provider has liability to the subscriber if her data is not safeguarded as legally required and in accordance with the provider's privacy policy. In the past, marketers have looked at this data as theirs. Actually, the subscriber's personal data belongs to the subscriber, which the subscriber consents to being used by the marketer on the agreed terms. What is the nature of the relationship between the service provider, the service provider customer and the subscriber? If the customer wants access to this data, in my view this needs to be clearly understood between the customer, the service provider and the subscriber. In part this requires posting of the appropriate privacy policy at the place of data collection on customer's web site. My two cents worth on this subject. John John Glube Toronto, Canada |
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chillbabygirl Joined: Oct 22, 2004
# Posts: 1
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Posted: 11/13/2004 04:49 am
Log on (url removed) and kick out your problem forever. |
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porubus Joined: Feb 14, 2005
# Posts: 7
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Posted: 02/23/2005 08:07 pm
Hi John, I was wondering if you know more about how to get on yahoo's whitelist. I don't seem to find any info about that. Thanks Kevin |
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john_glube Joined: Oct 09, 2004
# Posts: 29
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Posted: 02/23/2005 09:19 pm
Kevin, Yahoo! has a help section to deal with mail issues. For senders, you will want to review the material on this page:
Also read through the related links. If this information does not help, get in touch directly with Yahoo! through the form provided to seek assistance. John Glube Toronto, Canada |
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porubus Joined: Feb 14, 2005
# Posts: 7
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Posted: 02/28/2005 03:01 pm
Thank you John! This helped a lot. I foud the application for the whitelist, and sent it. Hope to get a possitive response. Do you think i should also integrate all three SPF, Domain Keys, and Sender ID yet? I am concerned that they may conflict with each other. Regards, Kevin |
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john_glube Joined: Oct 09, 2004
# Posts: 29
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Posted: 02/28/2005 07:43 pm
Kevin, You are welcome. As to SPF, Sender ID and DomainKeys a couple of comments: * A new draft protocol for SPF was filed with the IETF in January for consideration as an experimental proposal. This replaced the existing draft protocol on file. * The draft protocols for Sender ID Framework was filed with the IETF last year for consideration an experimental proposal. There are compatability issues between the new draft protocol for SPF and the existing draft protocols for Sender ID Framework which means more work is required on the Sender ID Framework. To my understanding, SpamAssassin is recommending that senders publish an SPF record and a DomainKey record. To the best of my knowledge, the only recipient presently doing any field checking of PRA using the Sender ID Framework is Microsoft. I must be honest and say that I am not a fan of SPF. There are problems: * It breaks mail forwarding and there really has not been a resolution of this issue. * Unless you are using a static IP address to connect to the Internet before logging into your server to send e-mail, this will cause issues. * Sendmail is suggesting that for the moment you publish an SPF record ending in ~all to avoid conflicts with DomainKeys. * SPF was not designed for use with accreditation and reputation services. As some have said it is a "hack." Those are not my words. Those are the words of one of its proponents. Personally, I happen to think CSV makes more sense. This protocol is now ready for field testing. What do? Publish an SPF record ending in ~all. Publish a record which excludes PRA checking. Consider publishing a DomainKey, although this protocol is still in early days and will likely be merged with Cisco's proposal. If you control your own mail server, publish a CSV record. For those who are interested, this www.learnsteps4profit.com/emgr.html provides references to the protocols for SPF, Sender ID Framework and CSV. Trusting these comments are of some assistance. John John Glube Toronto, Canada |
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porubus Joined: Feb 14, 2005
# Posts: 7
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Posted: 03/02/2005 09:09 am
Thanks John! I think i will have t set up SPF because AOL says that if you dn't have that you can't be on the whitelist after the summer. I think i will have to try the Domain Keys too, because Yahoo was pushing for it on their application for whitelist too. I am not sure about Sender ID though. My emails are still going to the "junk mail" folder though 100% opt ins. I hope to fix the issue if i integrate the Sender ID but am afraid of the conflict you mentioned. Do you have any other suggestions about Hotmail and MSN delivery? Regards, Kevin |
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john_glube Joined: Oct 09, 2004
# Posts: 29
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Posted: 03/03/2005 08:56 am
Kevin, I am not sure what you mean by 100% opt-in. MSN and Hotmail have published their technical standards here:
If your email meets the technical standards and continue to have difficulties: [link] Are you sending your own mail from your own dedicated server? The PRA check in the Sender ID Framework is designed to use the v=spf1 record. The SPF folks don't like this and hence the conflict, because the new SPF protocol as drafted prohibits use of the v=spf1 record for this purpose. The IESG in reviewing the draft, asked the SPF folks to remove this section. Who knows what will happen. For bulk mailers, if you are sending your own mail from your own dedicated server, compliance with both is fairly easy. Just ensure that the fully qualified domain name in your EHELO/HELO matches with the fully qualified domain name in your SMTP MAIL FROM and the fully qualified domain name in your "From" address. You can then publish: * an SPF record using v=spf1 for the MAIL FROM scope; * an SPF record using spf2.0/pra for the PRA scope; and, (In both cases, end the record with ~all to avoid conflict with DomainKeys.) * a CSV record for the HELO/EHELO scope. I realize this is more work, but it helps to ensure receivers will use the right records for the right purpose. Of course, some networks will not do it the right way, but then some networks already have broken procedures. Trusting this helps. John John Glube Toronto, Canada |
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porubus Joined: Feb 14, 2005
# Posts: 7
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Posted: 03/07/2005 10:17 am
Hi John. Quick update: The Hotmail questionnaire for Bulk emails notification I sent didn’t work. All they did was to push us to apply for Bonded Sender which is pretty expensive. I guess they may by have some participation in it. They don’t have a whitelist. We published SPF1 record, tomorrow is time for SPF2 but I don’t think that this will solve the issue. Any other ideas? Thanks Kevin |
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john_glube Joined: Oct 09, 2004
# Posts: 29
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Posted: 03/08/2005 09:31 am
Kevin, I had heard that Hotmail was suggesting that people who applied for white listing at the server level through the provided link apply for white listing through Bonded Sender. Option A: Make contact with the appropriate people higher up in Microsoft and see if you can resolve the issue. (Unfortunately, that process may take time. It is a matter of gaining people's trust.) Option B: Tell people who want to subscribe to your list that since Hotmail won't white list your IPs and if they want to receive your messages to use another free web mail based service like Yahoo! Option B: Get people who subscribe using a hotmail or msn address to safe list your "from" email address in their personal filters. Option C: Do what Ken Evoy of Site Sell did and start a "deliver my mail campaign" by your subscribers. Option D: Sign up with a service that can aid you in getting your mail delivered. The article posted on www.learnsteps4profit.com/emgr.html provides you with some reference points. Option E: I am aware that Bonded Sender does have a re-seller program, so that providers can offer bonding to their clients. I am aware of a number of email service providers which offer this service. I don't believe at this juncture that any web hosts are doing the same, although I stand to be corrected. By signing up through a re-seller this reduces the initial cost. I understand these are not the answers you may have been looking for, but presently Microsoft has partially shut the door in an effort to reduce spam. Kind regards, John Glube Toronto, Canada |
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porubus Joined: Feb 14, 2005
# Posts: 7
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Posted: 03/23/2005 02:35 pm
John, It seams that the Hotmail issue was fixed by itself. May be there was a filter that had created a temporary block. This is somewhat good news, but i am not at ease because this means that it can happen very easy soon again, and we don't know yet how to control it. I got in contact with Hotmail rep again and they confirmed that the only option would be to purchase the Bonded Sender license. It is crazy out there! 
Thanks for your advice. You have been very helpful. Kevin |
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john_glube Joined: Oct 09, 2004
# Posts: 29
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Posted: 03/23/2005 06:50 pm
Hmm ... interesting. Hotmail does its own internal filtering. This is done at the server level. Also users can set up account preferences. In addition, Hotmail uses Brightmail to provide reputational filtering. My speculation? The Hotmail rep told you to get in touch with Bonded Sender for white listing which is consistent. At the same time, Hotmail responded to the particular issue. Did you provide them with the information they requested? If so, for senders, this means, if you want to arrange for "white listing" you have to go through Bonded Sender. At the same time, to resolve issues on a case by case basis, you can work through the contact source at Hotmail. If my understanding is correct, this helps to understand what is going on with Hotmail. On the overall issue of email delivery, yes the world is crazy right now. John P.S. Of course, the problem with white listing through Bonded Sender, is that despite the web copy on their sales page, it does not provide a guarantee your email will make it into the inbox of hotmail or msn users. It simply means providing you comply with their standards, you are white listed at the gateway server level with hotmail and msn, along with a bunch of other networks. John Glube Toronto, Canada [Edited after original post.] |
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porubus Joined: Feb 14, 2005
# Posts: 7
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Posted: 04/22/2005 09:22 am
Hi John, I have was away for a while. I went to Miami for a business/vacation trip. Great time. Now i am back to face the email delivery issues again
We are now working on integrating Domain Keys, and it is very strange. I don't know if you've heard of something like this before, but - we are going through Yahoo fine without it, and when we set it up the same email is being delvered to teh Bulk box Here are the headers if you are interested:
-Apparently-To: pkassov@yahoo.com via 206.190.39.134; Fri, 22 Apr 2005 06:17:12 -0700 X-YahooFilteredBulk: 66.36.231.172 Authentication-Results: mta171.mail.dcn.yahoo.com from=sf0emails.com; domainkeys=pass (ok) X-Originating-IP: [66.36.231.172] Return-Path: <petar@sf0emails.com> Received: from 66.36.231.172 (HELO sf0emails.com) (66.36.231.172) by mta171.mail.dcn.yahoo.com with SMTP; Fri, 22 Apr 2005 06:17:12 -0700 Received: (qmail 19332 invoked by uid 0); 22 Apr 2005 13:20:01 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See [link] DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=default; d=sf0emails.com; b=ZeCkDP7al1Ap2+N66sCS3h8koPtUgGmN78nHJpw5dUMbBfIDyRMAhvVLHxIPKvVV ; Date: 22 Apr 2005 13:20:01 -0000 Message-ID: <9073709@sf0emails.com> Subject: mnmn To: "pkassov@yahoo.com" <pkassov@yahoo.com> From: "vie corp" <petar@sf0emails.com> Add to Address Book Reply-to: petar@sf0emails.com X-MessageID: 9073709 Precedence: bulk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_484_D6A1_5C0EE661.BE02C662" Content-Length: 1002 Let me know if you see something incorrect, i can't think of a reason why this reverse effect would be happening, when thi sis supposed to help delivery?
Regards, Kevin |
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john_glube Joined: Oct 09, 2004
# Posts: 29
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Posted: 04/28/2005 02:38 am
Peter, The web site for your business is presently at sendflyer.net. Your mail server is located at IP:66.235.190.26. Did you previously send mail to Yahoo! from this IP? You are setting up business at sf0emails.com. Your mail server is located at IP:66.36.231.172 as the IP. People need to understand a couple of points: * Before going through the exercise of establishing that the mail server you are using is authorized to send mail for your domain, ensure that your mail server is properly set up. This includes having a valid reverse DNS entry for the IP address of your mail server which is "non-generic." By non-generic, I mean that the reverse DNS entry points to a host name which is not simply the listing for a dsl or cable modem connection with the IP address in the host name. This indicates that the IP address is not designed to be used to send solicited bulk mail. The mail server IP address for sendflyer.net has a valid non-generic reverse DNS listing. But the mail server IP address for sf0emails.com does NOT. This is a signifcant red flag for a receiving network to suggest the IP address is sending spam. Also ensure that the IP address for your mail server is "clean." The mail server IP address for sendflyer is not listed in any public block list. The mail server IP address for sf0emails.com is listed in one public block list. I understand this particular block list is not widely used, but it may be an indicator of a problem. Also, this IP address is part of a network block which is a known spam source. Again, this may be a problem. So, the first thing which needs to be done is to clean up the DNS zone file. As to publishing a "domain key," people need to remember: * Email authentication makes it harder for senders to hide the message source. * SPF is designed to thwart "joe jobs." DomainKeys is designed to stop "phishing attacks." * Email authentication does not establish the sender's reputation. * So, if you are sending unsolicited bulk email, publishing an SPF record or a domain key will not convert your UBE into solicited bulk email. This requires good e-mailing practices. Simply put, the benefit of publishing an SPF record or a "domainkey" record for a bulk mailer, is that it allows the receiving network to say this mail came from that source. In turn this allows the receiving network to ask two key questions: * Does that source have a good reputation? Yes. Let the mail go to the inbox. * Is that source unknown or have a bad reputation? Yes. Send the mail to the bulk folder. Ultimately, it may also allow the receiving network to tell the end user, we have authenticated or not authenticated the message source, but email authentication can not establish whether the domain sending the message has a good, bad or unknown reputation. In the case of Yahoo! to resolve that problem, you need to apply for white listing. Presuming that your stated e-mailing practices meet their criteria, they will white list the IP address of your mail server and presuming that user complaint levels are not excessive, you will retain white listing status. Trusting this helps, John John Glube Toronto, Canada |
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s_wan Joined: Oct 12, 2005
# Posts: 1
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Posted: 10/12/2005 10:06 pm
Hi, i published the SPF1 and SPF2.0/pra, but all my mails to hotmail still going to Junk folder, any hints? Thanks ya... |
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john_glube Joined: Oct 09, 2004
# Posts: 29
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Posted: 10/13/2005 09:47 pm
Why does my mail go to junk at Hotmail? * How are you mailing? From a dedicated server? Does everything match up. Go to dnnsstuff.com and review your set up. * What is the reputation for mail coming from your IP address? Is it single or double opt-in? Single has a lower rating than double opt-in Are you mailing on a regular basis? If not, this may, along with other factors, result in your mail being construed as spam by some filters. * What type of mailings are you doing? Are you sending html or text messages? If it is html, is the message properly formatted. Improper formatting, bad links, etc. will result in html messages going to junk. With both html and text messages what is the content? Is it "spammy?" Again this will result in the messages going to junk. * Do you know anything about your "this is junk mail" complaints? Are you asking list members to safe list your from address. Visit the postmaster page for MSN/Hotmail for more details. * How are you managing bounces? Are you removing 550 bounce messages from your list as an example. This is a short list of items. Hope it helps. John Glube Toronto, Canada |
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reacher Joined: Oct 12, 2005
# Posts: 4
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Posted: 10/14/2005 02:11 am
Hi john, i faced the same problem, but all my mail will not go both hotmail junk folder and inbox. yes, i have a dedicated mail server, and everything look fine after i check the IP at dnsstuff.com And i checked, the IP not being blacklisted. the mail is in Html, and without any link in my mail content. and what is the better way to handle both hard bounce and soft bounce? Thanks for ur help ... |
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