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have a little problem (In: Coding & Databases - PHP, ASP, Perl, etc.)
How to get a better ROI with pay per click adverti (In: Pay Per Click - Google/Yahoo & Others)
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bizguy
Joined: Eons Ago
# Posts: 80
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Posted: 2004-Dec-04 16:31
I have been reading a lot of articles about click fraud lately--competitors and affiliates clicking on your ads and stealing your money.
Apparently, this is becoming a very big problem and getting worse fast.
I feel certain that it is affecting me (not just on Google, but Overture as well).
Some odd things:
All else being the same (site presentation, current mix of competitive ads and sites, etc.), why is it that one day I will see a huge difference in cost/conversions than another? I know there may be weird spikes based on other media--tv, newspaper ads, etc. BUT, people are still looking! And clicking! And I know from experience what my conversion rate should be. It just doesn't make sense.
It's not that my surrounding competitors have a better product/value proposition--they're about the same. And my own proposition has been steady. And yet, a huge fluctuation from one day to the next, or one week to the next--very odd.
And another thing: I consistently make good money on Saturday and Sunday mornings (early) and late on those evenings. Mid-days on the weekend are another story. What gives? My gut feeling is that the click frauders are sleeping in or out enjoying their weekend evenings.
I'm using a tracking service to check for redundant clicks. I see tons of them at around 4-5 clicks, and a few dozen a month that are completely blatant (10-15 clicks). It could be people are just going back and forth and are too lazy to bookmark, but I'm thinking not.
I'd like to hear some other takes on this--what's been your experience?
Anyone think Google/Overture are doing a good job of filtering? Can they be relied on? (I once got a voluntary, tiny $5 credit from google for what must have been click fraud--they took the initiative and let me know. I wonder if that was to induce confidence or if they are doing a good job of this on an ongoing basis!)
(Lastly, side pet peeve: getting spidered on ALL my ads by search engine optimization firms, who then call me on my 800 number to try to sell me at my expense. This costs us the amount of the ad click(s) as well as 800 expense!)
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flyingrose
Staff
Joined: Oct 30, 2003
# Posts: 3361
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Posted: 2004-Dec-04 21:22
In another thread we've been discussing what happens when a PTR (Get Paid to Read) program picks up a keyword. If you see huge fluctuations that could be affecting you.
Your feeling that weekend afternoons are bad would fit in with a likely pattern of PTR people clicking on ads with no intention of buying.
A light bulb just went on in my head as I realize that is why some of the more expensive, sophisticated bid management companies are using what they call "day-parting" which is basically raising bids based on what days and times are converting and lowering them during times with lots of clicks and few buyers.
There is quite a bit of fluctuation day to day but there are usually patterns that repeat. Friday evenings are slower as are holidays and long weekends.
Mondays are consistently slow for some advertisers and busy for others. Tuesday is usually a peak day and Wednesday and Thursday are strong.
You may be able to increase your ROI by dropping your bids to minimal amounts on weekend afternoons and raising them during your best sales hours.
You could pause and resume ads at Google; however, they have had technical issues at times that have kept ads from going back online in a timely manner.
As for redundant clicks, most people will use the easiest path back to your site. Unfortunately, many times that will be searching again and clicking on your ad repeatedly.
Creative use of mailing lists and autoresponders can reduce advertising costs by providing free paths back to your site. I find links in an email are the fastest way to get back to a site that I've visited.
As for your side pet peeve, the good SEOs I know are so busy that they don't do things like that. Some really bad companies that should be avoided completely DO use those tactics.
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bpeter1
Joined: Dec 21, 2004
# Posts: 3
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Posted: 2004-Dec-21 16:32
It's a huge problem and I don't think G and O are doing a good job of "filtering" at all. Have someone click on a campaign of yours once a day for a month and I bet you get charged for every click. Not a big deal if you pay $.15 a click, but if you pay $5 it can be a huge deal.
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flyingrose
Staff
Joined: Oct 30, 2003
# Posts: 3361
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Posted: 2004-Dec-22 05:59
It is unlikely that one click a day all month would trigger any click fraud detection. Many Internet users do not have static IP addresses so each time they log in they are assigned a different address.
Unless cookies are used they would be seen as different users. Even if they are seen as the same user, one click per day - especially if different keywords were used - is not likely to be defined as click fraud.
Click fraud can be a problem if what you are advertising is something that might be popular with the general public and gets promoted by a PTR program or you have competitors who lack integrity.
For most of the campaigns I manage it has not been a serious problem. I attribute this to their niches not being popular with the general public.
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galway
Joined: Apr 26, 2004
# Posts: 300
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Posted: 2005-Jan-07 18:09
Just an experience to share,
We monitored a ppc for a finacial company, they were paying $13 a click for loan related terms. They were spending fortunes and getting very sporadic business, we monitored and looked for patterns. Their website was geared to online proposals (props) each prop was very valuable in potential for commission. The pattern was that in the morning after 9am and in the afternoon between 3 and 5.30 his funds were eaten at an extraordinary rate $500 per hour for no props. His budget was being eaten by 6pm.
We dropped the bid price to just a minimal amount at 9 am and then I would log on from home at 6.30 pm and re-instate the high bids. Hey presto lots of props come the morning.
Conclusion, the real customers were online filling in props after work in the evening, at 9 am the competitors in the field arrived at the office and the mischief began. You must remember that there could be twenty different competitors each day clicking on each others ads, even navigating a while, reconnecting with different IP in the afternoon.
The solution of crediting the account at 6.30 meant that most of the timewasters had left the office and gone home for the night.
Result was a happy client, the problem with high bid stuff though is that there are always going to be funds wasted by people who are up to no good.
It cannot be regulated as its so easy to be random.
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flyingrose
Staff
Joined: Oct 30, 2003
# Posts: 3361
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Posted: 2005-Jan-12 04:29
There are bid managment programs that offer what they call dayparting specifically because of this issue. They adjust bids based on historical data, lowering them during periods of unlikely sales and raising them during the best hours.
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racerx812
Joined: Jan 30, 2005
# Posts: 9
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Posted: 2005-Jan-30 18:15
I have to suspect the same problem and especially from Google, I have a lot steam to vent off so bear with me of my thought about this problem and more. I dont have a way to track this suspecion but now its at a point that I am going to have to buy software to track click fraud.
My PPC campaign with google is through the roof, I am spending $600 to a $1,000 a day (not including Overture), that accounts for almost 30% of my gross sales on some days. I spoke to google to complain of the surge of click thru and they are in the process of evaluating my account.
In the mean time, I did find a competitor selling the same items and is a Adsense sponsor, what is really disturbing that it asks the vistor to visit the websites below to compare their prices.(How nice that my competitor can make money off of me..) What is even worse, they could be clicking on me as well as their family and friend. I complained about this to Google since this was a violation of their policy, they told me they can do it but they are not going to enforce it. How rotten is that? That mean Google is getting to be slime bags and at what cost is going to be to an advetiser. To put a stop to it I stopped my content advertising immediatly, I saw a savings, about a $150.00 a day, my sales still remained the same. I looks to me that content advertising is a waste of money.
Other issues with google are their bidding process, just another way for them to fleece the advertiser blind, and heres how:
1. They dont tell you what the other is bidding or willing to spend at any time, therefore you are biding blindly a word that can ultimately get very expensive. If Google use Overture's way of bidding process, they would not make the money that they are making.
2. CPC calculator, I use it but it is not accurate, dont start with what the maximum CPC suggest, Start low and then increase the amount until your are at a postition that you are comfortable with and alway check your position on another browser to test your positions as you increase your bid, what I have found is if you choose 1st position, they will charge you an amount higher than what the estimated traffic will be. I paid .55 cents for and ad that no one else was advertising, it should of been charged .05 cents....
My final thought is that every advertiser should demand Google to run a report on every advertiser account on a monthly basis to see if click fraud occurred, not to run a report when asked, to me this would be more appealing and this would elimate guessing around, this would be a great service to the advertiser. In the mean time I am going to get my own software to police this problem myself.
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flyingrose
Staff
Joined: Oct 30, 2003
# Posts: 3361
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Posted: 2005-Jan-31 05:27
Have you considered turning content ads off? You are correct about the estimator system and bidding low and moving them up to the position you wish.
Their system is only supposed to charge you a penny more than the next competitor. Because ads vary across different partners and can come and go depending upon competitor's budgets it cannot be easily determined how many other advertisers there are on a given keyword.
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racerx812
Joined: Jan 30, 2005
# Posts: 9
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Posted: 2005-Jan-31 22:40
I did that and realized a saving as mentioned in paragraph 3.
As I mentioned in paragraph 4.1, Google is fleecing the advertiser, if they were more upfront on what the other advertisers are willing to spend on a key word they would not make the money they are making now. On overture I can decide what I want to pay and what position I want to be, on google its nothing but a guessing game.
All PPC companies should review advertiser accounts on a monthly basis and credit those advertiser who paid for clicks from the same cookies and IP numbers. Just one person can click my ad once a day every day and this will not be filtered out by the PPC companies.
I would not be suprise if some one is thinking about suing the PPC Companies for online fraud. Google knows this problem is real, (but Google knows they are benefitting from it) they indicated that when they filed their SEC form to become public. This problem I believe is far worst than people are led to believe.
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flyingrose
Staff
Joined: Oct 30, 2003
# Posts: 3361
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Posted: 2005-Feb-01 19:38
Google provides a service which some are using to generate income at others' expense. The solution to click fraud racerx812 suggests would not work.
Many people do not have static (always the same) IP addresses and many either reject cookies, delete them automatically when they close the browser window, or delete them manually.
There is always an ongoing cat and mouse game between the good and the parasitic. Each improvement by one is followed by a new scam from the other. There will always be con artists knowledgeable enough to defeat simple solutions.
Whether the Google or Overture systems of bidding are better is open to disagreement. At Overture your competitor's can see your bids and play games with them. At Google they can't.
You can determine ad position by adjusting bids and you can see exactly who is advertising and whose ads are above you. Google rewards people who have more effective campaigns with higher positions for less money.
Overture simply gives priority to the highest bidder. There are pros and cons to both systems as there are to everything else in life.
It is not in Google's best interest to allow or encourage click fraud and they are aggressively throwing out bad affiliates. Check any online board and you'll see them complaining.
The potential income from keeping PPC as clean as possible far exceeds the money they can make by allowing click fraud.
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googleadwordfraud
Joined: Feb 08, 2005
# Posts: 1
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Posted: 2005-Feb-08 11:51
Google Adwords is more than a problem and the way google handles it is EVEN MORE DISTURBING. I can repost everything, but I am just going to keep a blog. Here is the link if you want to see what I am turning up, Its just a start, but I am trying to nail down click fraud firms based in foriegn countries that are building nice little side niches ripping us adword users off.
Buyer beware, dont make the mistake I made, turn off content match. If you dont you are asking to be raked throught the coals. Demand that your ads are not placed in the adsense system.
[ Message was edited by: bhartzer 02/08/2005 09:03 am ... Reason: self-promotion removed ]
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unreviewed
Joined: Dec 07, 2000
# Posts: 6776
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Posted: 2005-Feb-08 16:10
googleadwordfraud, you are writing about click fraud, on a free Blog that is supported by, and shows, text based advertisers?
I agree that click fraud is a big problem, so much so that I personally have stopped all PPC advertising; except for one small web site that is using Google’s localized Adwords. Although you make some good points in your blog, you ruin any chance of delivering a serious message, because of your claims that Google tried to infect your computer with a virus, after you complained to them about fraud related to your Adwords campaign.
Also, your choice of a user name “googleadwordfraud”, obviously means you are not committed to any lasting relation to our community. You are just ranting, something that will wear off soon, and in the meantime, we’ll put up with your ranting to a point, but if your blog is any indication of what your posting will be like, you will not last very long in this community. You have already broken our TOS by placing a link to your personal blog. You should put that link in your profile.
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SportsHound
Joined: Oct 18, 2002
# Posts: 4
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Posted: 2005-Feb-11 00:53
Click fraud is certainly a huge problem, regardless of the PPC engine, amount you spend in pure dollars or the sleezy nature of the Ponzi theft that's going on.
While the issue of proxies and firms such as AOL assigning dynamic IP's can be daunting to catch the slimeballs, it is worth the time if you're spending more than $100 a month on ad spend.
Some "experts" have suggested click fraud as high as 50%. That is likely to be true for the higher cost phrases. However, even for the lower cost phrases, as a percent of your ad spend, if you're losing 20% to scammers, you might as well put a flame to your money.
The whole topic thing just sickens me. In fact, I got so tired of seeing my money and conversion rates sink that my team and I have done something about it.
We recently introduced a click fraud tracking tool that I would be happy to provide a free trial to for SEF members. You can PM me or contact me through my email. We want to help clean up this business and get it back to where it was a few years ago - as a viable and action effective means to drive traffic to a website.
SportsHound
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jmadison
Joined: Jan 26, 2005
# Posts: 14
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Posted: 2005-Feb-11 14:05
I found an interesting article in CNN Money about google's involvement in this click fraud monster.
[link]
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Tigresa
Joined: Dec 23, 2003
# Posts: 42
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Posted: 2005-Feb-11 18:08
very interesting article!
I'm having the same problem but it seems to be localized to just Google. Overture is having the opposite affect, higher conversions, lower clicks and bid prices...
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flyingrose
Staff
Joined: Oct 30, 2003
# Posts: 3361
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Posted: 2005-Feb-12 02:27
Thanks for the link jmadison. Tigresa, are you running content ads? If you are you may wish to turn them off. Because most Web sites qualify for Google Adsense and only the highest traffic sites can display Overture content ads the difference you're seeing is likely to be Adsense ads.
Click fraud is more common on Adsense because of this; however, that doesn't mean that there isn't any at Overture. It affects all PPC engines to some extent.
The major variance in percentage of one type of click fraud has more to do with what is being advertised than any other single factor.
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