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freeflyer
Joined: Aug 06, 2007
# Posts: 211
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Posted: 2008-Apr-02 12:52
Discussion time...
There's differing opinions about alt tags. Do we use them to reflect the page theme, or the page to which they are linking? or do we use them purely to reflect the image contained within.
What about title tags? should they be the same as the alt tag? Do they reflect the page theme/page they are linking to, or not?
Logically.. the image alt will represent the page theme anyway, its bound to, after all, its an image about the page subject.. same goes for the title.. but what about copying your meta title in the image alt for example? Bad or good practice?
I'd say bad.. but i'm open to discussion.. seeing that we are now optimising for 'natural' pages, then it makes sense not to repeat any of your main terms for an alt tag, but then whats the use of an alt tag being a completely different representation of what the image or page is about? Surely that just waters down your page for even more unwanted terms.
ANy opinions or experiment results anyone?
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Quadrille
Joined: Nov 15, 2000
# Posts: 1064
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Posted: 2008-Apr-02 14:02
The ALT attribute exists to describe the image; it says nothing about SEO, the page, or link (if any) - any resemblance or relation is coincidental, though, as you say, the picture may well be relevant to the page content, making the ALT relevant too.
When you say title tag, are you referring to the <TITLE> or <Hx> or ...
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freeflyer
Joined: Aug 06, 2007
# Posts: 211
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Posted: 2008-Apr-02 14:35
yep like you say, it has nothing to do with the actual page content, and is meant as a reflection of the image, but in the context of a well formed page the image will reflect the content.. so maybe the alt should match the theme? old methods of SEO says the search engines read the alt tag when it is indexing... i think its still relevant to a degree.
and what about the title of the image (thats what i meant by title)? Should that match the alt tag or the page title tag?
this isnt a newbie question by the way.. its a discussion in general about what we think..
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rainmaker3000
Joined: Apr 02, 2008
# Posts: 7
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Posted: 2008-Apr-02 14:50
I have to interject...any opportunity to produce relevant content on your page can always be considered beneficial to an SEO standpoint. Utilizing the Alt Tags of your images can be yet another point where search-able content can reflect the relevancy of the page, be an opportunity to inject keywords, trusting that it ALSO reflects the nature of the image. Any opportunity is an opportunity, as long as these images are static (never/hardly ever change). If you shape your pages to bolster these keywords along with relevant content, META, h1/h2s, alts, etc...you'll be in good standing.
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freeflyer
Joined: Aug 06, 2007
# Posts: 211
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Posted: 2008-Apr-02 14:58
yes like many others i'd agree... but such is the world of SEO where 50% do, and 50% dont. Only this morning i read a thread on here advising to NOT use your main keyterms in an alt tag.. use it to refect the image and nothing else. Granted there is a crossover to that rule, but in general would you ignore the rule about representing theimage and instead fill the alt with your main keyterms?
Nobody has commented on the image title tag, what about that? match the alt? match the keyterms? match the image? People are thinking the image title tag when used in a hyperlink has the same effect as a text link.. so we should match it to the page it points to.
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Quadrille
Joined: Nov 15, 2000
# Posts: 1064
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Posted: 2008-Apr-02 16:41
"yep like you say, it has nothing to do with the actual page content, and is meant as a reflection of the image, but in the context of a well formed page the image will reflect the content.. so maybe the alt should match the theme?"
No. It should match the image. If it also matches the theme, that's a bonus. Matching the theme, rather than the image, would be spam.
If you want SEO benefit, then obviously, you'd choose relevant pictures. But be clear, misusing the attribute is spam, and can have consequences.
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rainmaker3000
Joined: Apr 02, 2008
# Posts: 7
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Posted: 2008-Apr-02 18:41
Right. So if you're able to satisfy both, find the happy medium, you're hitting two birds with one stone (ugh, too many euphs). Just imagine an image of shirt on a screen printing website, keyword "screen printing", alt~ "T-Shirt Screen Printing"...its a very basic example, but you get the idea.
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freeflyer
Joined: Aug 06, 2007
# Posts: 211
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Posted: 2008-Apr-02 19:14
Quadrille, we know search engines cant see images or have no idea what image is contained within, so can you please define for me how two identical alt tags (one representing the image, one representing the theme) would be interpreted as one spammy and the other not?
In the case of a crossover alt as in rainmakers example, would you class that as spammy for a site that based around T Shirt screen printing? or would you class it as a good reflection of the image contained within?
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Quadrille
Joined: Nov 15, 2000
# Posts: 1064
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Posted: 2008-Apr-02 21:24
Are you asking morally or pragmatically?
Pragmatically speaking, ALT text is designed to help people who cannot see images (eg blind people and those with images turned off), to know what the image is.
To abuse it for SEO purposes is spam - and many sites get reported by rivals for just that.
I'm not going to spend time arguing the toss about examples; in my experience, most sighted people know what an image is, and can come up with a phrase to describe it.
Also in my experience, most spammers know exactly what they're doing - and in this case, you couldn't really do it "accidentally".
Morally is a different kettle of fish entirely, and we all decide for ourselves what's 'right' and what isn't.
Personally, I don't like spam - but spam presented as SEO, to me, is a far, far worse event. But that's just me, and you may well think differently.
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freeflyer
Joined: Aug 06, 2007
# Posts: 211
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Posted: 2008-Apr-03 10:01
i thought i'd replied to this last night.. this forums odd sometimes. I cant remmeber what i wrote now, but anyway.. what about image title tags? whats peoples opinions on those? Match the alt? match the theme? match the page they're linking to?
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g1smd
Staff
Joined: Jul 28, 2002
# Posts: 10438
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Posted: 2008-Apr-03 19:48
Ahem. As Quadrille keeps pointing out, its an attribute, not a tag.
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freeflyer
Joined: Aug 06, 2007
# Posts: 211
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Posted: 2008-Apr-03 21:03
i was waiting for that... yes i know... just force of habit to say tags
Yet still no one comments on the title 'attribute' for images.. cause no one knows on here, right?
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g1smd
Staff
Joined: Jul 28, 2002
# Posts: 10438
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Posted: 2008-Apr-03 21:13
The title attribute produces pop-up text on mouseover, but the text isn't indexed or counted by search engines for ranking purposes.
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freeflyer
Joined: Aug 06, 2007
# Posts: 211
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Posted: 2008-Apr-03 22:22
i give up...
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g1smd
Staff
Joined: Jul 28, 2002
# Posts: 10438
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Posted: 2008-Apr-03 22:50
OK. I only skimmed the question as I am currently doing about ten other things.
I'll quit out of the forum for a few days. I'm really far too busy to be here.
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Prowler
Staff
Joined: Aug 14, 2000
# Posts: 1795
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Posted: 2008-Apr-05 09:13
You are probably referring to this situation :
We assume that Prometheus is the name of a Project and you get the drift.
In this case Title tag refers to the page title of the ensuing page while the alt tag refers to the actual image used.
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freeflyer
Joined: Aug 06, 2007
# Posts: 211
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Posted: 2008-Apr-06 12:52
why would you think i'm referring to a <a> ? I've said all along this is about images..
How many of you have seen the image title attribute? not many? whats going on here????
<img src="/dog_image.jpg" alt="our dog rex" title="This is a picture of our dog" >
The alt does the same job as its always done but isnt displayed anymore with the presence of the title attribute.. The 'title' creates the text on mouseover (as the alt would have done if the title wasnt there, and is also reputed to count as link text when placed in a link, or maybe it doesnt.. thats the point and why i threw it open to discussion.
I was hoping to get some views on how we use the title attribute to good effect in relation to the alts, should we use them at all, and whether matching the alt is a good idea etc etc.. i've obviously been asking in the wrong place.
Are questions sometimes not answered properly for some kind of higher purpose? Are you trying to ge people to learn for themselves? I'm not a newbie, that is evident, but sometimes i wonder whats going on in this place. The most basic questions go unanswered (one thread had over 100 views but NO ANSWERS, it was a VERY simple question about an anchor tag). Other questions get answered incorrectly without covering the subject at all, by people who apparently should know their trade very well. I just cant understand it.
I know i'm opening myself up for attack with this post.. i dont care.. i'm off.
[ Message was edited by: freeflyer 04/06/2008 05:03 am ]
[ Message was edited by: freeflyer 04/06/2008 05:04 am ]
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g1smd
Staff
Joined: Jul 28, 2002
# Posts: 10438
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Posted: 2008-Apr-06 18:06
*** The 'title' creates the text on mouseover (as the alt would have done if the title wasnt there, ... ***
Yes. The title attribute should produce popup text on mouseover, but the alt attribute should NEVER do that. The alt text is rendered in the image box when the image fails to load, or when image loading has been turned off in the browser.
The fact that in Internet Explorer, the alt text creates a popup tooltip is a BUG and that operation is not as per the published HTML standards.
alt= alternative
title = tooltip
In general, alt is used with <img> and title is used with <a>. As far as I know, the title attribute, wherever used, has no bearing on SEO. Usage is purely for usability. You can use the title attribute with images but at present there is no SEO benefit in doing that.
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freeflyer
Joined: Aug 06, 2007
# Posts: 211
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Posted: 2008-Apr-06 18:40
aha thankyou... i didnt know it was a bug in IE that caused the popup with the alt... is it really a bug though if they've kept it that long? maybe at one point but now intentional?
sorry i wasnt trying to be harsh with my last post.. its just frustrating on here as no one seems to give direct answers or opinions to anything... its like the posts dont get read properly.
okay, so the title is used on the popup both with alts and with anchors, we know that. The titles have been around for some time now, and given that it represnts a reference to link to a page, do we actually know for sure that it is not taken into account by the search engines? it makes sense that it does. Either way, i'm assuming none of you use them like that.. personally, for the sake of 3 seconds work to add them i'll be using them for this purpose just in case.
anyway...
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g1smd
Staff
Joined: Jul 28, 2002
# Posts: 10438
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Posted: 2008-Apr-06 19:28
I use them to help the visitor find their way around.
You can test if the title text is indexed quite easily.
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