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excell
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Posted: 2005-Mar-11 13:56
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Update - fast track through to the Ansearch Scumware Articles...
---------------------------

Something is up with this. I have no idea what they are doing but it doesn't look good at all.
I was cruising around (for whatever reason ) and found a heap of SERPs in Google associated with ansearch and various domains have a look:
Search - ansearch cached
I was about done looking at what appears to be somesort of scapping/cloaking whatever on the cached domains (beware duplicate content coming folks) when I turned my attention to the "unavailable ones".

Have a look at these whois records - this is just a very small sample.
the .com's are in use and the .com.au obviously used to be owned by the companies in question.. there are links out there & dmoz listings etc.
I'm only giving two here but if you look into this some of the domains in question are fresh enough to have lots of content and pages in google cache.

Now apparently owned by Ansearch??? WHY???
AU Businesses protect your brand!!!

Why would Ansearch want with all these expired domains?
Here's more...is YOUR company in there?

Whois Result for kaseychambers.com.au @ whois.ausregistry.net
Registrant
Name Goodbrook Holdings Pty Ltd
ID ACN 111225604
Handle C2108366-AR
Person Domain Administrator
Email whodeani @ozemail.com.au
Domain
Name kaseychambers.com.au
UpdatedDate 09-Feb-2005 02:27:04 UTC
Status OK
NameServer ns1.soush.com.au
NameServer ns2.soush.com.au
NameServerAddress 65.98.57.186
NameServerAddress 65.98.57.187
TechContact
Handle C2089469-AR
Name Domain Administrator
Person Domain Administrator
Email whodeani @ozemail.com.au
Whois Result for huntervalleyholidays.com.au @ whois.ausregistry.net
Registrant
Name GOODBROOK HOLDINGS PTY LTDGOODBROOK HOLDINGS PTY LTD
ID ACN 111225604
Handle C2483168-AR
Person GOODBROOK HOLDINGS PTY LTDGOODBROOK HOLDINGS PTY LTD
Email damian.london @ansearch.com.au
Domain
Name huntervalleyholidays.com.au
UpdatedDate Never Updated
Status OK
NameServer ns1.soush.com.au
NameServer ns2.soush.com.au
NameServerAddress 65.98.57.186
NameServerAddress 65.98.57.187
TechContact
Handle C2483169-AR
Name Damian London
Person Damian London
Email damian.london @ansearch.com.au


I wonder what AUDA have to say about this... I wonder what EMI or any of the other numerous businesses affected have to say about this.

Can anyone shed any light on this - am I being a worry wart about it??
It doesn't seem quite right to me! If it all looks fine and dandy someone is going to have to explain to me how it can be?

[ Message was edited by: JimBot 04/23/2005 12:56 am ... Reason: Add fast-track link ]





excell
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Posted: 2005-Mar-11 14:23
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Flabagasting...just buy old domains and use their content to stuff a search engine with their key phrases?

Here is a sample. (this is not a very good example - but it gives the general idea

huntervalleyholidays.com.au/showhospitalityinfo.php3?HotelId=ABG001
---------------------------------------
Then for extra punch why not index everything all over again and cache it and get it out there on the search engines?
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&c2coff=1&q=+site:www.ansearch.com.au+ansearch+%22is+unavailable%22



excell
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Posted: 2005-Mar-11 14:42
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As far as I can tell press for Ansearch has all been positive thus far (I don't see anyone else out there that has a problem with them - if you do see anything else that covers the above issues could you pm me, thanks!).

Here is a zdnet article re- Overture etc.
http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/communications/0,2000061791,39183736,00.htm

article re - usage (I don't know - maybe they hired clickmonkey.com?) Do you know anyone who is using it?
http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/software/0,2000061733,39178647,00.htm



Sinoed
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Posted: 2005-Mar-11 16:02
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Maybe no on one else has picked up on this yet Excell. You have to have a very good familiarity with engines,be actively working with smaller AU businesses and be able to figure out what they're up to. I also wonder if this is something new they're trying to pump up traffic?

Technically I suppose its not against the law if all they're doing is purchasing expired domains with exisiting traffic. Although I can't imagine why you would do that for a search engine. I'm absolutely clueless as to their intent. Buying them for a single site is one thing but you'd have to buy a TON to make it effective for a search engine. Wouldn't money be better spent on R & D? I'm guessing the only reason for it would be to ensure that their site is very well placed for .au searches in Google and constantly spidered from all of the expired domains with traffic..?



excell
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Posted: 2005-Mar-11 16:38
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I'm quite wild about this issue..
take a look at this one - the real company URL is one of their "top 100 listed) for their correct URL
Angus & Robertson are a large Au bookstore and obviously used to own various domains - all I have to say is all AU business get moving TODAY.. re-register register get your branding protected!
Do a google search on angusandrobertson (a mispelling)this is a worry - why are AUDA allowing this?

Whois Result for angusandrobertson.com.au @ whois.ausregistry.net
Registrant
Name Goodbrook Holdings Pty Ltd
ID ACN 111225604
Handle C2226250-AR
Person Domain Administrator
Email whodeani @ozemail.com.au
Domain
Name angusandrobertson.com.au
UpdatedDate 09-Feb-2005 01:30:05 UTC
Status OK
NameServer ns1.soush.com.au
NameServer ns2.soush.com.au
NameServerAddress 65.98.57.186
NameServerAddress 65.98.57.187
TechContact
Handle C2226252-AR
Name Domain Administrator
Person Domain Administrator
Email whodeani @ozemail.com.au


I followed around and I have found a post by someone representing the company on search engine watch... and put a few questions to them there as they were asking for feedback.

Search Engine Watch Forum - Ansearch


What gets me is the naivety of AU to so totally accept such goings on as this!

Wake up Australia - Your country needs you! smile


[ Message was edited by: JimBot 03/17/2005 10:48 pm ... Reason: De-linking e-mail addy ]





excell
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Posted: 2005-Mar-11 16:41
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I also wonder if this is something new they're trying to pump up traffic?

Yah either that or clickmonkeys :Dtongue



excell
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Posted: 2005-Mar-11 16:48
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huggies.com.au
awww come on leave our baby pants alone.

There are so many brand names out there that this company seem to be moving in on it's a crying shame!

Again - warning AU protect your brand.



excell
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Posted: 2005-Mar-11 17:41
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Article - Ansearch
Hmm Hitwise statistics - it all sounds good doesn't it but do YOU know anyone that has even heard of this engine outside of the insiders?

gotta be clickmonkeys in there somewherelaugh

Adding - Sorry to be so painfully talking to myself - but I cannot help it so here is another:

It may be just me - but I wonder how the Department of Fair Trading feels about this:
Whois Result for fairtrading.com.au @ whois.ausregistry.net
Registrant
Name Goodbrook Holdings Pty Ltd
ID ACN 111225604
Handle C2285303-AR
Person Domain Administrator
Email whodeani @ozemail.com.au
Domain
Name fairtrading.com.au
UpdatedDate 15-Feb-2005 07:10:29 UTC
Status OK
NameServer ns1.soush.com.au
NameServer ns2.soush.com.au
NameServerAddress 65.98.57.186
NameServerAddress 65.98.57.187
TechContact
Handle C2285304-AR
Name Domain Administrator
Person Domain Administrator
Email whodeani @ozemail.com.au


Hello?


[ Message was edited by: JimBot 03/17/2005 10:51 pm ... Reason: De-linking e-mail addy ]





g1smd
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Posted: 2005-Mar-11 19:22
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Eeep. That's gonna come back to haunt someone big time I think.

Could cost a packet.



excell
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Posted: 2005-Mar-11 19:25
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Yup - dealing with the big boys ain't all peaches & cream and not all can be sold off as easily as yahoo. smile



excell
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Posted: 2005-Mar-14 13:28
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It's really interesting looking into ansearch and their activity with Australian businesses' website content and Australian business domain names .com.au.

It's pretty scary to consider how much weight is put on traffic volume and nobody seems to care about the quality of same or where / how it is acquired.

Ansearch aimed to reach the "credibility" threshold of 500,000 unique visitors per month within 6 months in order to attract the big advertising dollars..
hence the deal with Overture being clinched (I suppose)...

Take a look at the Heads of Agreement & the figures involved...
[Ansearch / Optum Press Release]
(their other press releases make very interesting reading as well).

"With Optum's involvement and public company status we now have the capacity profile and financial incentive to accelerate Ansearch's development. We can drive visitor growth and build a compelling business case for online advertisers. We will focus on developing additional revenue streams from search technology licensing and enterprise applications. We will do this by making the new Ansearch search engine the best search experience on the web." said Dean Jones.

All publicly available materials and I don't see any reason not to post this and my thoughts about ansearch here.

There may be many great intentions and possibilities here but I think that the new Ansearch search engine is heading in a direction that is far from being the best search experience on the web (or the best search business model) <---all in my opinion of course! If Ansearch is being touted as a true competitor to the likes of Google Yahoo or even Web Wombat, shouldn't there be more public scrutiny?

I believe that AUDA has a huge loophole here and wonder what will happen next. Will we see a series of lawsuits? Does anyone within the AUDA have the ability to do some button clicking and come up with a list of domain names under the registrant in question? Do other search engines like Google have the ability to detect "shadow domains" that 302 redirect to a central point? Are searchers happy to arrive at a totally different site than what they thought they would go to when they click enter? Are Australian business & website owners happy to see their brand & content directed to this start up called Ansearch?

On the other hand - I could be wrong about my thoughts - I seem to still be the only one that smells a dead trout out there (I'm good at that)

Hmm as a BTW - ansearch results dropped dramatically in google (wonder why) down from something like approx 360,000 (this morning) to approx 70,000 (this evening)



Sinoed
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Posted: 2005-Mar-17 03:35
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I would think that copyright laws are going to kick in for a pile of the domain names they've registered.. having to defend themselves against lawsuits isn't exactly the best business model. I guess it depends on how proactive companies like Yahoo & Teoma are about their domains and whether they care that another search engine is blatantly riding their coattails in an effort to get ahead of them. Doesn't sound promising though..



Sinoed
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Posted: 2005-Mar-17 03:47
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Actually, just did a little poking around.. Teoma has filed the name with the US Trademarks & Patent Office:

[link]
[link]

This section refers to the use of a trademarked name:

You can't use somebody else's trademark in a way that would steal the value of the mark, or in a way that might make people confuse you with the real owner of the mark, or which might allow you to profit from the mark's good name. For example, if I were giving advice on music videos, I would be very wary of trying to label my works with a name like "mtv." smile You can use marks to critcise or parody the holder, as long as it's clear you aren't the holder.

and

recently in the USA commercial copyright violation involving more than 10 copies and value over $2500 was made a felony


[link]

I'm not sure how it relates to the DMCA but if anyone wants to read about that is here: [link]





excell
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Posted: 2005-Mar-17 05:56
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Yes I am sure there are a lot of companies that wouldn't be too happy about all this.
Microsoft, Google are some other search related companies where their name (or manglations of same)are being used to draw traffic. mozilla gator sourceforge & encarta are also interesting.

Anyway, I'm about done looking at all this - I've written a bit of a conclusion (or rather a question) in the comments section of ZDnet articles:
Ansearch - Canny Business or Confidence Trick?
How can any legitimate business justify its purchase of literally hundreds of .com.au domains to capture accidental traffic and drive it to their website and then passed that traffic off as an enormous success and proof of the popularity and the superiority of the features of their new search engine.

It appears that Australian newcomer to the Search Engine scene, Ansearch, is doing exactly that.

The domain names in question are mostly minor variations and misspellings of Australian government departments, organisations and well-known Australian and overseas business names and celebrities etc with a good sprinkling of generic words thrown in as well. They have been set up to route the accidental traffic from those mistyped and wrongly typed web addresses to their own web site (ansearch.com.au) with, in most cases, a 302 redirect. (on a side note - all of these domains are being indexed by Google because of the way they currently handle 302 cases - more clutter and deceptive redirects in the search engines!)

With traffic deadlines to meet before launching into some serious revenue earning predictions and financial backing it is perhaps easy to see why they have opted to use a technique that is more commonly employed in the realm of pornography marketing. But is it appropriate for a publicly listed Australian company to behave in such a dangerously underhanded manner?

With glowing reports about their traffic growth and statistics to prove it are the shareholders aware of Ansearch's very un-Australian behaviour?

A bit of noise is now being created around the search engine forums by web marketers that are concerned about the affect of Ansearch's activities --- not only for the exploitation of search and the Internet in general but also the exploitation of business names and trade names. There appears to be a serious flaw in the AUDA's policies that has allowed this to occur.

All Australian businesses and trademark holders should check to see if they have become a victim of this insidious form of identity theft


Everything I have seen and researched is open to the public to see... My conclusions are my own as is my interpretation. If I am wrong - then someone can help me by pointing it out - I'm open to correction smile





tezza23
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Posted: 2005-Mar-18 05:03
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Excell,

read some of your comments on another site and ended up here..

Find it funny you wouldn't have contacted this search engine directly, instead of Flaming this all over the web.

looks to me as if you have a gripe with this company or they are a competitor of your own company or a company you are aligned with??

Is there an issue with any company owning multiple domain names?? Many companies do?? This is not uncommon?

I assume you have an issue with every parked page on the internet? Every missspelt domain on the internet?

And what is the problem with owning an expired domain name??

If it (any domain name) wasn't registered, MSN would basically redirect everyone to MSN Search and then they ask us if we'd like to register the domain name? ... or we'd go to Search MSN of course??

Did you forget to register a domain name and someone else got it??? Sounds like it..

I am unsure how you can call yourself a professional in this space, especially when you post information about individuals across a number of websites (including email addresses)... Would you be happy if someone plastered your details everywhere? Is this really ethical?

And using your power as a Forum moderator? I hope you aren't doing this for you own personal gain or satisfaction? Surely your managers wouldn't do this sort of thing? Or condone it?

What is the real issue here? Looking forward to hearing more D.



excell
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Posted: 2005-Mar-18 05:36
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Hi tezza - welcome to the forums and thanks for your comments. I have no vested interest here.

In many cases owning multiple domain names and some generic typein domains is a good idea - I don't have a problem in general with it.

I do have an interest in search engines in general, the Internet at large and a particular interest in Australian businesses on the Internet and the way they present.

Anyway, I am sorry if you do not like the way I post (this thread shows the process of thoughts as I looked at this thing I guess) - you can take it up with any of the forum administrators if you like.

I don't see how you can see any "flame" in my posts though.
A flame is generally taken to be "To write angry or insulting words about a person".

From what I have seen the behaviour of this particular entity is something that needs to have attention drawn to it if for no other reason than to alert businesses & name holders trademarked or otherwise to protect their branding.

It also makes an interesting case study for the problem with the 302 handling in the search engines - where hundreds or thousands of domains can appear in the results all leading to the one domain. (not a good thing for searchers at all)

For those who find themselves a victim of cybersquatting or typosquatting - Apart from litigation there are domain name conflict resolution services in place.

For Australia it is via the auDRP (which is similar to the UDRP - the global mechanism under ICANN auspices)

There is more information on the AUDA website and I have found this a good site to learn about legal aspects of domain names / trademarks / dispute processes etc.

domain name disputes
Adding - I have fully put forward my questions and concerns to ansearch in another forum where they have asked for feedback. Also there is no confidential information posted in this thread, it is all publicly accessible.

I did miss a couple of linked e-mails though - could an admin please de-link them - thanks!

[ Message was edited by: excell 03/17/2005 10:04 pm ]





tezza23
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Posted: 2005-Mar-18 07:48
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Hi Excell,

yeah, thanks for bringing me here ... like this site indeed. spend most my time on others... but this sites full of interesting information.

just seemed to me like you had an issue with this company... I've seen this before.. but never seen anyone name names (individual, company, site) as you have... if you say you don't have any involvement, then fair enough.

RE: TPA - You need to look a little further into the trade mark practices act. You will find various sections, unless a company has a trademark under sections 38 and 42, there is most likely not much of a case.. (icq . com . au perfect example). From my experience most of the queries you had on names were incorrect. I'd admit, some are intersting, but still the worst that would happen is that the name would be deregistered. So accusing this company of violating the trade mark practices act and drawing attention to them is something (based on my legal knowlegde) I disagree with.

RE: "your questions to the search engine", i've contacted them myself, am awaiting a response. Still can't see why you wouldn't have done the same?

RE: "The way you Post" - if it is public information is not an excuse.. posting people's email addresses is just as good as submitting that person to a spam list. I am sure with your knowledge you are well aware of this.

The 302's are intersting.... we'll see what happens here... ninemsn search results are all over the place...

your comment: "where hundreds or thousands of domains can appear in the results all leading to the one domain". .... This forum actually has a number of domains that lead to the same place. I don't find anything wrong with that, and i'm sure you don't. Whats the difference?

Yes, you do have a right to your view, but if i were you (based on this being a company) i would have first contacted the company with your concerns and secondly never named any names (whether that be individuals, companies or domains) .. would hate for this to get any further.

have seen some info this morning online relating you to another australian search engine / directory:

(url removed) ?

I assume this is incorrect?



[ Message was edited by: bhartzer 03/22/2005 08:00 am ]





excell
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Posted: 2005-Mar-18 08:28
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like this site indeed. spend most my time on others... but this sites full of interesting information.

Yes, there are years worth of interesting stuff, glad you like it.
RE: TPA - You need to look a little further into the trade mark practices act. You will find various sections, unless a company has a trademark under sections 38 and 42, there is most likely not much of a case.. (icq . com . au perfect example).

I've had a look at a few of the results from the auDRP resolutions and it looks very favourable for the complainant where the points for a case are met. I was interested to note that in AU it doesn't have to be trademarked name.
From my experience most of the queries you had on names were incorrect. I'd admit, some are intersting, but still the worst that would happen is that the name would be deregistered. So accusing this company of violating the trade mark practices act and drawing attention to them is something (based on my legal knowlegde) I disagree with.
I can't help feeling as if you haven't read correctly or not deeply enough or have just missed something here. But anyway, now I don't understand you... what do you mean by "most of the queries you had on names were incorrect" are you talking about some ratio of generic vs trademark or?...


RE: "your questions to the search engine", i've contacted them myself, am awaiting a response. Still can't see why you wouldn't have done the same?
I've responded to them in the same fashion they have approached feedback from webmasters - via a forum & I am looking forward to a response as well. smile


RE: "The way you Post" - if it is public information is not an excuse.. posting people's email addresses is just as good as submitting that person to a spam list. I am sure with your knowledge you are well aware of this.
Yes indeed, I missed a couple of them (my mistake) but they have now been corrected by admin - thanks!

your comment: "where hundreds or thousands of domains can appear in the results all leading to the one domain". .... This forum actually has a number of domains that lead to the same place. I don't find anything wrong with that, and i'm sure you don't. Whats the difference?
The difference is mostly that the Jimworld domains are setup for the various aspects of this one here community which is diverse and that dates back a very long while. I don't like the way they slip out in duplicate form to the SERPs either, but I can assure you that every domain will appear for the info that is on it.. rather than looking for a celebrity or sex or whatever and being deceiptfully lead to a completely different url. Jimworld domains are not deceptive or set up to direct traffic to another place than where folks wanted to go - Someone else might know more about all that than me! (I am a relative newcomer here, only been around since 2000 or something like that.)


Yes, you do have a right to your view, but if i were you (based on this being a company) i would have first contacted the company with your concerns and secondly never named any names (whether that be individuals, companies or domains) .. would hate for this to get any further.
I believe this is not an issue about me. I have nothing to hide at all. Please read the title of this thread to try to understand my intentions smile




Sinoed
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Posted: 2005-Mar-18 22:39
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Just to be clear, I'm not that familiar with trademark laws, are you referring to sections 38 & 42 of the
"U. S. TRADEMARK LAW RULES OF PRACTICE & FEDERAL STATUTES"
http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/tac/tmlaw2.html#_Toc52343959 ? Specifically:


§2.38 Use by predecessor or by related companies.
(a) If the first use of the mark was by a predecessor in title or by a related company (sections 5 and 45 of the Act), and the use inures to the benefit of the applicant, the dates of first use (§§2.34(a)(1)(ii) and (iii)) may be asserted with a statement that first use was by the predecessor in title or by the related company, as appropriate.

(b) If the mark is not in fact being used by the applicant but is being used by one or more related companies whose use inures to the benefit of the applicant under §5 of the Act, such facts must be indicated in the application.

(c) The Office may require such details concerning the nature of the relationship and such proofs as may be necessary and appropriate for the purpose of showing that the use by related companies inures to the benefit of the applicant and does not affect the validity of the mark.

[30 FR 13193, Oct. 16, 1965, as amended at 54 FR 37589, Sept. 11, 1989; 64 FR 48900, Sept. 8, 1999, effective Oct. 30, 1999]



2.42 Concurrent use.
An application for registration as a lawful concurrent user shall specify and contain all the elements required by the preceding sections. The applicant in addition shall state in the application the area, the goods, and the mode of use for which applicant seeks registration; and also shall state, to the extent of the applicant’s knowledge, the concurrent lawful use of the mark by others, setting forth their names and addresses; registrations issued to or applications filed by such others, if any; the areas of such use; the goods on or in connection with which such use is made; the mode of such use; and the periods of such use.



As far as I can tell though, for the US companies, this doesn't mean anything when it comes to the Australian side of things?

I'm interested in finding out how this actually relates to the Australian laws. I know that for example Teoma filed a trademark with the US patents office and that an application for international rights could be considered as part of the Madrid Protocol. I know that both the US and Australia are part of the Madrid Protocol. However, I couldn't find "Teoma" in the WIPO databases. [link] or in the australian trademarks database [link] .
I'm assuming that means that Teoma would have absolutley zero grounds to file for trademark infringement.. but what about the copyright of the name? Does any of that apply?




excell
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Posted: 2005-Mar-21 06:05
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tezza - um, I find it absolutely ludicrous that you seek to imply that I have a competitive interest in this matter. Think about it - if I did, why the heck would I have promoted Ansearch here,
on these forums, as an up-and-coming Australian Search Engine to watch?
Please remember - these are search engine forums where we discuss search engine matters.. Consider - if google/yahoo/overture/name of other search related company/ even fart they have to stand up to public scrutiny.

Ansearch seeks to be a david to the goliath of existing search engines - wants to stand up in the AU search engine space - next to the likes of sensis / webwombat etc.

Um, as part of the interent / webmaster community I have a responsibility & a right to speak and to question matters when I find things that could be of interest / danger / negative affect as well as positive & helpful things.

smile


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